Powers Issues -- S-T

[Blue]

Q: Should Shrinking provide “growth momentum” damage?

I'd allow it once as a power stunt, and after that if they wanted to use it regularly they'd have to buy an attack with that SFX. It really isn't accounted for in the cost of the power, so remove it.


Q: Should Stretching provide “velocity” damage?

Again, it's not really paid for with the power, so they should buy this seperately.


Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

Keep swinging. There are only so many "true" modes of flight in comics. Running, Tunnelling, Flight, Teleportation, Leaping, and Swinging. I think a new player building a spiderman clone would have to remember this tidbit from a sidebar in the "flight" section. Instead, give him what he wants: an actual swinging power.


Q: Should Swinging be removed from the core rules and put in the Champions genre book?

Nope. Any creature (man or beast) should have the option available and up front. Grabbing something already there and swinging on it is more of an acrobatics roll, IMO. Spider-man style high-speed movement across the city is definitely a powerl


Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

Finally something I sorta agree with. While there's a certain amount of convenience in having it as a seperate power, Transfer could be classified as you mention. I don't see any real harm for a new player picking up the book and reading it by not having it as a seperate power.

[Opal]

Q: Should Shrinking and Growth be done differently?

The way shrinking continues increasing DCV has always irked me. If I'm punching someone the size of mayfly, is that really any harder than punching someone the size of a cockroach? I mean, they're both smaller than my fist. People use flyswatters for a reason.

Q: Should Shrinking provide “growth momentum” damage?

This decoupling thing is a horrid idea. Shrinking is a primary power - that is, characters in the supers genre often have shrinking and little or nothing else. It should be a pretty good power in it's own right, and it does makes about as much sense as move by and the like.

Q: Should Stretching provide “velocity” damage?

Something like that, yes. Again, Stretching is a classic power and often the primary or only power of such characters. It should enable some special manuvers - much like having a good movement power makes move-bys a practical attack - that allow a stretcher to do some good in combat. 'Velocity' damage would be a way of doing that, but Stretching really needs more, not less.

Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

Please. Swinging has never made the slightest bit of sense to me.

Q: Should Swinging be removed from the core rules and put in the Champions genre book?

No, it should just be a limitted form of flight (for the Spiderman types). For the chandelier-swining types in other genres, it should be an aspect of a skill like accrobatics or something.

Another possibility might be to make Swinging an Agility Skill. When you buy it, you’re assumed to have a swingline; if that gets taken away you can use environmental swinglines (e.g., vines in a jungle) at a Skill Roll penalty. Since by far the most common special effect for Swinging is “it’s a skill I have,” turning it back into a Skill might make some sense.

I don't like the 'assuming a swing line focus' idea at all. Aside from that, use a skill would be OK.

When you think about it, movement powers all work only in certain environments. Running works only on reasonably level solid surfaces, swimming works only in liquids, tunnelling only in solids, flight in gas or vacuum - even teleportation works only between areas you're familiar with (can see or have memorized). So a swinging or brachiation movement ability would only work in apropriate environments - like a forest or jungle or sailing ship or whatever.

Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

Though it absolutely could be, it's a common enough idea that it should be presented ready to purchase. I'd actually consider making Transfer the base power and making Drain a limitted form of Transfer, if you wanted to combine them.

[BobGreenwade]

Edit: Or are you asking where exactly in the book you'd put it? The most logical place would be in the section under reasoning from effect.

That's what I was asking. And that might seem like a logical place to put it, but not a logical place to look for it if I'm trying to figure out how to model Telekinesis.

Oh, and I did forget to mention the Active Point problem with Advantaged STR as TK. It becomes the same as the Active Point problem right now: for 60 AP in a Multipower I can lift the same as 40 STR directly. I want to be able to lift the same as 60 STR -- make Telekinesis a single-function Power with a simple price.

[Chris Goodwin]

That's what I was asking. And that might seem like a logical place to put it, but not a logical place to look for it if I'm trying to figure out how to model Telekinesis.

Oh, and I did forget to mention the Active Point problem with Advantaged STR as TK. It becomes the same as the Active Point problem right now: for 60 AP in a Multipower I can lift the same as 40 STR directly. I want to be able to lift the same as 60 STR -- make Telekinesis a single-function Power with a simple price.

Shouldn't it have a higher Active Cost? I think it should. Under 4e and 5e, Telekinesis does a higher Active Cost than STR, and I'm okay with that. Being able to perform feats of STR at a distance is worth a lot more than STR that can't, and should have a higher Active Cost. I honestly can't see a rationale for not requiring it to.

[ajackson]

Shouldn't it have a higher Active Cost?

Maybe, but 3 points per 2 Str winds up being a really annoying value for further computation.

[Chris Goodwin]

Maybe, but 3 points per 2 Str winds up being a really annoying value for further computation.

That's true.... and may be another argument for removing multiplication and division from the Advantage/Limitation process.

[BobGreenwade]

Shouldn't it have a higher Active Cost? I think it should. Under 4e and 5e, Telekinesis does a higher Active Cost than STR, and I'm okay with that. Being able to perform feats of STR at a distance is worth a lot more than STR that can't, and should have a higher Active Cost. I honestly can't see a rationale for not requiring it to.

Besides what ajackson mentions, remember that I'm also proposing taking out the "Telekinetic punch and squeeze." I'd be okay with removing the "semi-indirect" aspects as well. Either could be returned to the Power with an Advantage -- probably +1/4 for each. That's the deal I'm suggesting: reduced utility for a more manageable cost.

[Opal]

TK was originally 1 pt per pt of STR. It couldn't punch or squeeze, you had to smack people with objects or slam them against the floor to do damage. I don't know why they changed it. IMHO, the 5pt/DC standard should be maintained.

Besides, it's not like STR stacks with TK. Other powers, like KA, get to stick to the 5apt/DC standard whether they're HTH and stack with STR or Ranged and don't. Why should TK be so different?

[dstarfire]

I'd seriously like to see swinging removed as a seperate power. It's nothing more than a combination of climbing and limited flight (gliding actually, but since that'll be rolled into flight ...).

I'd suggest leaving these powers as 'optional variants' of the powers, similar to how regeneration is built now. This would solve the 'usable as second mode of movement' issue.

[rjcurrie]

I think leaving Swinging as a separate Power is perfectly fine. It doesn't take up that much space and I'm leery of turning too many existing Powers into other Powers with Limitations.

[Andrew_A]

Posted by BobGreenwade

Besides what ajackson mentions, remember that I'm also proposing taking out the "Telekinetic punch and squeeze." I'd be okay with removing the "semi-indirect" aspects as well. Either could be returned to the Power with an Advantage -- probably +1/4 for each. That's the deal I'm suggesting: reduced utility for a more manageable cost.

Why can't we treat TK the same way we treat HA? Cost wise it's basically Ranged STR, so why not make the ranged advantage required to purchase it? This way you'd keeep TK the same cost and make it cheaper to add some of the more common advantages (e.g. Invisible, Area Effect/Selective Area, Line of Sight, etc.)

Or you could price TK the way Bob has suggested and use an optional advantage to give it the ability to punch and squeeze.

[Andrew_A]

As for Shrinking...

I think (given that this is a universal sysyem) that shrinking behaves way too much like it does in superhero comics. Once you're shrunk, you're as tough, strong, and your attacks do the same amount of damage that they do at your full height. What's more, Usable as Attack makes anyone you've shrunk more powerful instead of less powerful.

I would like to see an option for Heroic campaigns that makes shrinking less deadly, while still keeping it as powerful in Superheroic campaigns.

[Netzilla]

Q: Should Stretching provide “velocity” damage?

I can see turning it into an Adder or Advantage on Stretching.

Q: Should Swinging be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

Unlike Gliding, I think Swinging would be too complicated to build as a Limited for of Flight. Change the points so that they would match a Limited Flight, but don't actually remove the power.

Q: Should Swinging be removed from the core rules and put in the Champions genre book?

No. Keep it in the core rules. The fewer books I have to page through to find the rule I want, the better.

Another possibility might be to make Swinging an Agility Skill. When you buy it, you’re assumed to have a swingline; if that gets taken away you can use environmental swinglines (e.g., vines in a jungle) at a Skill Roll penalty. Since by far the most common special effect for Swinging is “it’s a skill I have,” turning it back into a Skill might make some sense.

Heck, if you're going to go this route, it sounds like something that should be done with a combination of Acrobatics and Environmental Movement.

Q: Should Transfer be eliminated in favor of some sort of Drain + Linked Aid construct?

I think this would over-complicate the build.

[eternal_sage]

i for one would REALLY like to see the mechanic for Telepathy (and Mind Control, and PRE Attacks) be completely taken out, and replaced with something that doesn't seem quite so out of place.

for instance: these powers still give you a number of d6, and they still get compared to EGO, however if "Normal Damage" from the dice beats EGO you get the most basic effect, if the "Normal BODY Damage" is greater than EGO then you get the advanced effect. Mental Def acts like normal Def in this case (reducing the effect) and could even get a Resistant MD option.

or something different. this is one of my wife's biggest pet peeves, and one she claims makes mentalists nigh unplayable. i agree that the current system makes these powers confusing and they feel tacked on. my two coppers

[eternal_sage]

and i'm all for ditching TK in favor of Ranged STR.