Page 1 of 50 1234511 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 750

Thread: Powers Issues -- F-K

  1. #1
    Steve Long's Avatar
    Steve Long is online now Decuple Millennial Master Administrator
    Obsessed Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Greensboro, NC
    Age
    46
    Posts
    15,109
    Blog Entries
    21
    Rep Power
    913084

    Powers Issues -- F-K

    Hi folx! Here are some thoughts about Powers that begin with F-K that have occurred to me over the years, along with my brief thoughts on them. I’m posting them here to stimulate discussion, but not to limit or restrict it. These aren’t necessarily all the issues about these Powers that could be considered, nor the only thoughts about them. Feel free to post anything here that you think is relevant and reasonably constructive; you don’t have to limit yourself to what I’ve posted.

    Regardless of whatever opinion I post on an idea, I’m always willing to be convinced otherwise if you think you can do it. The fact that I’m posting an opinion doesn’t necessarily mean my mind’s made up on an issue; it just indicates my current thinking on the subject.

    Periodically I may post other questions and thoughts that occur to me.


    Q: Should FTL Travel be eliminated in favor of MegaScaled Flight?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I don’t think so. Admittedly you can build FTL travel capabilities with MegaScaled Flight, but it’s difficult for most people to come up with the exact conversion that way. FTL travel is very common in Science Fiction, and I think providing a simple, easy-to-use way to calculate how fast you can travel relative to the speed of light is worth a column of space in the book.


    Q: Should Find Weakness be eliminated as a Power?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I think this idea is worth considering. Find Weakness is often a conceptual nightmare, and to a large extent it’s a Power built wholly around a rules-based effect (halve the defense) rather than any typical “special effect.” Since the naked Advantage rules are now sufficiently well-defined for a character to easily build a naked Armor Piercing Advantage for a group of attacks, removing Find Weakness would remove all the questions that it creates (like “Can I halve someone’s defense when I try to run over them with a car? When I plant a land mine and they step on it hours later?”). Of course, if Find Weakness is removed, Lack Of Weakness would be as well.


    Q: Should Gliding be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I think this is a good idea. The rules for Gliding are short and simple enough that it can easily be reconfigured as Limited Flight — which is basically what it is.


    Q: Should Growth and Shrinking be done differently?

    Steve’s Thoughts: These two Powers are perpetual troublemakers who seem to get a re-do with every edition. I don’t have any serious problems with the way they’re handled now, but of course I’m always on the lookout for ways to do things better.

    One thought that has occurred to me is that it might be better to replace the existing Powers with a formalization of the Size Templates currently found in the book. Right now both Powers tend to give you *some* of what you expect from those abilities (especially Growth), but not everything you might want. If we set them out as Templates from which you can pick and choose, that would make customization easier. However, this approach tends to be a bit more complex, esp. if we have to offer both “regular” and “Costs Endurance” versions.

    On the other hand, perhaps customizability as a default will be counterintuitive, making it harder for newcomers to the system to build Growing and Shrinking characters. Perhaps there isn’t a problem here that’s severe enough to merit a change.


    Q: Should the “STR adds damage” feature be removed from HKA?

    Steve’s Thoughts: The answer to this may play into the whole issue of streamlining the Adding Damage rules (see the Combat post). However, I think the idea is worth considering. I can see the “gaming logic” that instituted this rule in the first place, but it doesn’t entirely make sense. Just being stronger doesn’t necessarily mean you can make a knife or axe or whatever do more damage than it’s capable of doing. Additionally, it’s not necessarily consistent — there are lots of attacks with the “I hit them really hard, or in a particular way” special effect, such as eye gouges (Sight Group Flash, No Range), and they don’t get any bonus from STR.

    However, if this change is made, it almost certainly means that HKA and RKA should be combined into one Power (see below), and that RKA in effect becomes more expensive. If we just have a “KA” Power, then RKA has to be KA + Ranged (+1/2) or HKA has to be KA + No Range (-1/2). If HKA keeps its “STR adds damage” feature, then a KA Power could be “HTH you get +STR, Ranged you get Range,” both costing 15 points per 1d6 (3 DCs).


    Q: Should HKA and RKA be combined into one power?

    Steve’s Thoughts: This idea has some merit, I think. The text for the two is virtually identical in many respects. Assuming HKA keeps its “STR adds damage” feature (see above), then a single “KA” Power would simply mean for 15 points a character does 1d6 Killing Damage, and when he buys the Power he has to choose HTH (gets +STR) or Ranged (gets Range). Or perhaps, as outlined above, we choose one and do the other with Power Modifiers.

    This makes Killing Attack more consistent with other Powers. The rules don’t, for example, have Drain, Ranged and Drain, HTH — they have Drain, and you buy Ranged as an Advantage if you want it. Nor do they feature Energy Blast, Ranged and Energy Blast, HTH — you buy EB as-is, and apply No Range (-1/2) if desired.


    Q: Should the STUN Multiplier for Killing Attacks be changed?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I don’t think the current STUN Multiplier rules are a problem — or if they are, they’re a problem for the opposite reason most people seem to think. But since they seem to be unpopular, a change might be worth considering. In that case, I think switching to a ˝d6+1 STUN Multiplier would be better.
    Steve Long
    Young Curmudgeon

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Portland, OR
    Age
    48
    Posts
    3,714
    Blog Entries
    2
    Rep Power
    3599587

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long
    Steve’s Thoughts: I don’t think the current STUN Multiplier rules are a problem — or if they are, they’re a problem for the opposite reason most people seem to think. But since they seem to be unpopular, a change might be worth considering. In that case, I think switching to a ˝d6+1 STUN Multiplier would be better.
    That is a very interesting statement. Care to elaborate? This new mechanic would make the STUN multiplier a range from 2X-4X instead of 1x-6x as it is now. I'm curious about the rationale.
    6th Edition is for entertainment purposes only.

    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to make crummy re-imaginings. "

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    The dark corners of the Earth
    Posts
    520
    Rep Power
    8984

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    As far as Find Weakness - I've already nixed that one in all of my games. As you say, there already exist plenty of ways to simulate that effect; naked advantages, skill levels limited 'only to increase damage vs focused-upon target', extra DCs limited in the same way, various adjustments, and others. Furthermore, Lack of Weakness is a pain in the ass defense. It only protects against one exotic power, but that one exotic power is so deadly (it's not hard to get two successful rolls on a target if you buy up your roll; and for quartering their defenses, who wouldn't?) that those who rely on high defenses really can't afford not to buy it up. Exotic defenses should be minimized whenever possible, and LoW is about as superfluous as they get.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    1,767
    Rep Power
    234754

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Q: Should Find Weakness be eliminated as a Power?
    Well, removing Find Weakness is a bit hard to swallow, but then I look at the last few times I've had it in my games, and it often featured the limitation "can only acheive one level'..and so it may as well have been Armor piercing.

    Q: Should Growth and Shrinking be done differently?

    .Perhaps there isn’t a problem here that’s severe enough to merit a change.
    I think you have the right answer there.

    Q: Should the “STR adds damage” feature be removed from HKA

    If we just have a “KA” Power ..... HKA has to be KA + No Range (-1/2).
    That is the answer I prefer. It maintains active point balances between RKA andHKA's, and solves the whole mega advantaged HKA gettign a geat boost from high STr characters problem.



    Q: Should the STUN Multiplier for Killing Attacks be changed?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I don’t think the current STUN Multiplier rules are a problem — or if they are, they’re a problem for the opposite reason most people seem to think. But since they seem to be unpopular, a change might be worth considering. In that case, I think switching to a ˝d6+1 STUN Multiplier would be better.
    the problem is mostly seen in superheroic games. I hate the stun lottery. Anythign that removes it is a good in my book. I use a fixed multiplier of 2.5 myself, I found the x3 (the average result of the 1/2d6+1 to be a bit too good.
    "Our country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, may she always be in the right; but our country, right or wrong."
    Author: Stephen Decatur

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In My Pajamas
    Age
    45
    Posts
    2,320
    Blog Entries
    1
    Rep Power
    4713995

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should Find Weakness be eliminated as a Power?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I think this idea is worth considering. Find Weakness is often a conceptual nightmare, and to a large extent it’s a Power built wholly around a rules-based effect (halve the defense) rather than any typical “special effect.” Since the naked Advantage rules are now sufficiently well-defined for a character to easily build a naked Armor Piercing Advantage for a group of attacks, removing Find Weakness would remove all the questions that it creates (like “Can I halve someone’s defense when I try to run over them with a car? When I plant a land mine and they step on it hours later?”).
    Could I use it in a boat? Could I use it on a goat?

    JG
    Hero System is not a religion. It gives you the tools to build a religion. -Lord Liaden
    ---
    I need to define my worth by the amount of rep points I have on an obscure board frequented by people I have never seen nor met. -Catacomb
    ---
    That, my friends, is the problem with America. Political discourse is not so much held to a lower standard as it has its head forced into a bucket of diarrhea until it drowns. -Querysphinx
    ---

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    East of the Pacific
    Posts
    11,651
    Blog Entries
    45
    Rep Power
    4625450

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    I don't see the issue with HKA and STR damage. Doesn't a stronger guy with a meat cleaver tend to be able to cut through substances better than a guy who can barely lift it?
    "See it's not that the Democrats are playing checkers and the Republicans are playing chess, it's that the Republicans are playing chess and the Democrats are in the nurse's office because once again they glued their balls to their thighs." - Jon Stewart
    2009: Else Earth Gods of Olympus
    Project 2006:
    DC/Marvel Write up compilation
    Project 2004:
    Hero A Day Thread

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Posts
    160
    Rep Power
    3694

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should Find Weakness be eliminated as a Power?
    Agreed, for the reasons you've listed, most notably that it duplicates functionality and that it's so very mechanistic.

    Q: Should Gliding be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?
    This makes sense too. Folding one power into another can be tricky because, while it simplifies things for experienced players, people new to the game can start having troubles finding something, but I think everyone will think to check Flight for a gliding variant.

    Q: Should HKA and RKA be combined into one power?
    At a minimum, I really, really like this idea. 1D6 Kill Attack for 10 pts, with Range and STR Adds each a separate +1/2, would be much better than what we have now.

    Even better is using that and also treating kill attacks the same way as regular attacks in terms of calculating BODY, but with the Body dealt only applied vs. Resistant Defenses. Regular and kill damage are thus both rolled the same way, so it's easier to learn, and the broken Stun lotto is dead. This is much smoother than the current method, and seems to be going over well in this thread. I'd love to see this with the above combined attack power, but if for some reason that doesn't make it, changing how kill attacks determine damage can work on its own.

    Lastly, most radical, but I think best, is ignoring all the above and checking out Netzilla's Unified Damage Mechanic. It combines regular and killing damage into one mechanic, defeats advantage stacking, eliminates the Stun lotto AND makes killing attacks actually do enough Body vs. Stun to deserve the name "killing" and be markedly distinct from regular attacks. It's also been run through the math wringer and come out solid. As it's worked out over the course of numerous posts, I'll just link to the key posts presenting it: if you prefer you can of course follow its progression as it advances through this thread.

    http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...&postcount=108 - This lays out Netzilla's basic rationale
    http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...&postcount=227 - The end summation of what he and others worked out
    http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...&postcount=225 - How his killing attack bears out against low-level opponents
    http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...&postcount=226 - and against superheroes

    The only other thing worked out after the above linked posts is that the +1/4 Killing Advantage should be treated as an Adder (i.e. calculated into the base cost of the attack, before any other advantages are added in), in order to prevent nasty attack builds utilizing advantage stacking. As everyone using the rules will know how an adder is supposed to be applied this shouldn't be difficult to grasp, and as Netzilla's mechanism unifies the damage mechanic, thus making a big reduction in overall complexity and word count, I think we can spare one little oddity with an Adder, especially since it also kills the existing problem with stacking. Credit to PhilFleischmann on this one.

    As an aside, if you're curious about the math surrounding the 5th ed stun lotto:
    http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...8&postcount=83 - ajackson's analysis of the stun multiplier and why it sucks
    Last edited by Xotl; Apr 3rd, '09 at 10:08 PM. Reason: adding in thoughts from later in the thread rather than making a zillion new posts

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Albany, NY
    Age
    44
    Posts
    1,374
    Rep Power
    91790

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should Gliding be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I think this is a good idea. The rules for Gliding are short and simple enough that it can easily be reconfigured as Limited Flight — which is basically what it is.
    I agree completely that gliding should be rolled into the flight power, because as stated it is basically limited flight. Now to jump to the S's to suggest the same for swinging.
    By reading this signature you agree, on behalf of your employer, to release me from all obligations and waivers arising from any and all NON-NEGOTIATED agreements, licenses, terms-of-service, shrinkwrap, clickwrap, browsewrap, confidentiality, non-disclosure, non-compete and acceptable use policies that I have entered into with your employer, its partners, licensors, agents and assigns, in perpetuity, without prejudice to my ongoing rights and privileges.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Age
    36
    Posts
    7,769
    Blog Entries
    3
    Rep Power
    644065

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    RE: Find weakness, what about making it a talent? Build it with armor piercing, RSR, 0 endurance, etc..., charge based on DC...

    Just an idea...
    Come talk comics at http://www.kountrykomicsonline.com/forum/index.php

    The only thing common about common sense is the common lack of it

    ...'In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant.' For years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."Harvey --- Thanks Hermit and BobGreenwade

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    The Old Pueblo
    Posts
    4,808
    Blog Entries
    14
    Rep Power
    3520852

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    F G H I

    Yes, this is the right thread.

    Two Words: Instant Change!
    15th member of the Pantheon, I hereby declare myself Board God of Alternate Sexuality and Third Party Candidates.

    Next November all of you will go to the polls: you'll stand there in the polling place and make a decision. I think when you make that decision. it might be well if you would ask yourself, is Osama bin Laden still dead?

    Avatar by lemming. Thanks Again!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Bournemouth, UK
    Age
    46
    Posts
    13,230
    Rep Power
    421497

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should Find Weakness be eliminated as a Power?
    I wouldn't mind seeing this done differently, perhaps as a talent built with 'extra damage, only to eliminate defences' or something like that. I've not been a fan of FW generally because of the conceptual issues with it, although they could be largely removed by requiring that it be based on a sense the character has rather than being a sort of sense in its own right.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should Gliding be eliminated in favor of making it a Limited form of Flight?
    I'd agree with that - makes AP and END issues go away.


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should Growth and Shrinking be done differently?
    I'd like to see them done differently, but I'm not sure how. One option would simply be to firm up the templates a bit, and treat growth and shrinking as the sfx of a set of linked powers. You might even want to consider a 'special framework' as, certainly for growth, the combination is not the most efficient for character creation, and the lack of synergy might be worth some sort of discount.

    I'd certainly be inclined to remove growth momentum and allow people to buy limtied damage if they want it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should the “STR adds damage” feature be removed from HKA?


    Q: Should HKA and RKA be combined into one power?
    Intruiging thought. Make RKA more expensive, to reflect the advantages it has over normal attacks (in defences if nothing else), and possibly even remove the ability to add damage with strength, but attow HtH KA to take the 'no range' limitaiton. That could fly.

    Other thoughts while we are tossing the ball about: ONLY resistant defences stop killing damage (so normal defences won;t stop killing stun even if you have some resistant defences). This would make the cost structure far more transparent: 2DCs of KA should cost 15 points. This would also have the effect of reducing the value of KA you could get under a given AP cap: 60 points would allow 8DCs or 2 1/2 D6.

    In superhero games KA utility would probably reduce but it would still be very useful for heroic games and the cost would be consistent and appropriate within the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Long View Post
    Q: Should the STUN Multiplier for Killing Attacks be changed?

    Steve’s Thoughts: I don’t think the current STUN Multiplier rules are a problem — or if they are, they’re a problem for the opposite reason most people seem to think. But since they seem to be unpopular, a change might be worth considering. In that case, I think switching to a ˝d6+1 STUN Multiplier would be better.

    I'm not a fan of the stun lottery and would rather see KAs rolled as normal attacks, just applied to different defences. I don't think getting substantial stun through defences that stop all long term damage (i.e. Body) is really realistic or even cinematically realistic. I have seen it used once or twice (hero or villain gets 'killed' then later comes too and reveals their bullet proof vest). We could sort this, rather than a change in rules, by having a limitation for bullet KAs (maximum stun through defences = DC of attack if no body penetrates: -1/2 or whatever).

    Personally though I'd rather just see one emchanic for damage in the system rather than two.
    ________________________________________

    The Ministry of Stupid Ideas

  12. #12
    nexus's Avatar
    nexus is offline Septuple Millennial Master Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    39
    Posts
    7,289
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Quote Originally Posted by McCoy View Post
    F G H I

    Yes, this is the right thread.

    Two Words: Instant Change!
    I'm with McCoy on this one. Instant Change is a small power but different enough that I feel it deserves it's own entry. Stuffing it under Transform requires too much kludging.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Clifton.VA,USA
    Age
    54
    Posts
    2,197
    Rep Power
    463929

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    Quote Originally Posted by Enforcer84 View Post
    I don't see the issue with HKA and STR damage. Doesn't a stronger guy with a meat cleaver tend to be able to cut through substances better than a guy who can barely lift it?

    Man I agree with you a lot. I often use just a little extra HA to represent steel fists or something myself. there's that trying to decouple things that don't need decoupling come again.

    I dislike find weakness as is. Maybe do something like you decrease their defenses by the amount you roll under or roll excess ( REX we call it.)


    Yes, just roll gliding in as limited flight.

    Keep FTL as separate. Its less confusing that way.

    I ( gasp) agree with Sean Walters, a killing attack which does no body should do less STUN. AS to the stun lottery never liked it. I use hit location always.
    I also like his idea of more complete generic size templates to use in growth/shrinking.
    Last edited by steamteck; Feb 18th, '08 at 06:49 AM.
    " Its not that there are too many fools on the Earth, its that the lightning isn't distributed properly" Mark Twain

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Neo York, United North America
    Age
    44
    Posts
    14,686
    Rep Power
    4125453

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    In my opinion, the way Flash works (BODY = Segments) makes most flash attacks useless. You need a lot of Flash to get any significant effect. Making it "Total = Segments" would probably work far better and be far more effective.
    Michael Surbrook
    susano @ guisarme.net
    Visit Surbrook's Stuff for all of your HERO needs.

    "Provide me with ships or proper sails for the celestial atmosphere and there will be men there, too, who do not fear the appalling distance."

    Johannes Kepler

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Machesney Park, IL
    Age
    26
    Posts
    2,839
    Rep Power
    807518

    Re: Powers Issues -- F-K

    What if Killing Damage operated like a specific version of AVLD?

    Killing Damage (+1) - Normal Defenses do not work on this attack. Roll damage as normal, with the dice total = STUN damage + Normal Damage BODY.

    The BODY rolled can not be stopped by Normal Defenses; a character must have Resistant Defense (+1/2) to protect against Killing Damage BODY.

    If a character has no Resistant Defense, they take all of the BODY damage dealt by the attack, but their Normal Defenses work normally against the STUN damage.
    Last edited by The Main Man; Feb 18th, '08 at 08:50 AM.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •