Powers Issues -- F-K

[Opal]

If you value a 4d KA without range at 40 rpts (RKA at a -1/2 lim), guy C has spent 50 points for a 40 pt power and +20 points of STR, and 'saved' 10 points one way or another. Of course, if you're attacking with STR, you're always going to save 10 points compared to the guy who throws the same number of DCs at range. So all the objection really can be is to those first 10 points of STR.

OTOH, if guy B decides he wants another attack, say an EB, he plops it in a multipower with his RKA, and has a 12d EB for 12 points (two six-point ultra slots), while if guy C decides he wants a 12d EB, it'd cost him 39 points to convert his HKA into a multipower big enough to hold one. Those 10 (or, if you insist, 20) points he 'saved' are gone with interest.


I think what you're driving at is that you want a fool-proof point buy system in which 10 points of anything always gets you exactly the same utility as 10 points of anything else?

[Ockham's Spoon]

Healing:
I completely do not understand why this isn't just Aid with the advantage "restored points don't fade" and the limitation "only to restore lost points". (Maybe when I read the Aid thread I will find out, but I skipped here first). Because quite frankly I had more than one 4th Ed. character with an Aid that would heal and boost his powers simultaneously, which was really convenient (mostly creatures of pure energy and such, but I could see other applications). Save space in 6E and roll Healing into Aid.

Killing Attacks:
I don't like they way the damage from a KA is calculated so differently from normal attacks. I really, really don't like the STN lotto. At minimum I would go with the STN Multiplier at ½d6+1, but really I think "Killing" should be an advantage on normal attacks. That seems more consistent with Armor Piercing and AVLD and such.

[Opal]

While the STN lotto sucks in supers games, it's really very apropriate outside that genre. And, the general randomness of low-die KAs (and guns should be low-die KAs) really represents the chaotic science of terminal ballistics rather apropriately, I think.

I'd like to see the basic cost and dice-rolling convention of KAs remain. But, there should be more practical ways for supers to 'bullet proof' themselves.

[steamteck]

While the STN lotto sucks in supers games, it's really very apropriate outside that genre. And, the general randomness of low-die KAs (and guns should be low-die KAs) really represents the chaotic science of terminal ballistics rather apropriately, I think.

I'd like to see the basic cost and dice-rolling convention of KAs remain. But, there should be more practical ways for supers to 'bullet proof' themselves.

Stop that! I can only rep you so often! That makes lots of sense there are ways to bullet stunproof your supers now but an official easy recommended way might be nice.even just some thoughts on it mentioned.

[Opal]

I'd really like something that could, at least in supers games, make high-end superhero level resistant defense consistently ping at least handguns.

An optional rule for supers or other lethality-discouraging genres might be to limit the amount of stun a KA can do when it fails to inflict BOD. Personally, I go overboard on this and just aply the STNx to the BOD that gets through. But a fixed x2 STN multiplier when the BOD bounces might be quite adequate.

[Susano]

We found a flat x3 STUN Multiple worked wonders.

[braincraft]

I would rather see the KA, or the eye gouge or bruise, add some dice that are limited by their link to your STR

That's actually an elegant and simple solution that respects AP caps.

Rep for j00z!

[GamePhil]

I'd say it's not desireable to have 'STR adds' as an advantage. It /is/ disireable, though, to have powers like HA or HKA - or perhaps others - that transform STR damage by allowing STR to up to double them, and adhere to the 5pt/DC standard. If 'STR adds' is an advantage, you'd have to set the base power at /aproximately/ 3Apt/DC, which isn't a great idea (one reason it wasn't used for HA).

I actually believe that neither one is desirable. It is a simple enough matter to put your STR in a Multipower with a KA, especially if Figured Characteristics are eliminated, and I see little advantage to allowing STR to be transformed into something else. If it *can* be so transformed, I see no reason it must be limited to KA and would like a system whereby it can be applied to other attacks. Not only that, if it can be transformed I see no reason to limit such transformations to STR. Ultimately, I'm not sure I see the benefit of such transformations, but we already have something similar with Movement Powers and I don't expect that to go away, so maybe we'll have something like this.

But, *if* HKA is eliminated, and *if* adding STR is still desirable, *then* an Advantage may be an appropriate route. If either of those is not true, then it isn't, and honestly, I don't see how the second could be desirable if the first isn't, but I'm brainstorming.

[Chris Goodwin]

Healing:
I completely do not understand why this isn't just Aid with the advantage "restored points don't fade" and the limitation "only to restore lost points". (Maybe when I read the Aid thread I will find out, but I skipped here first). Because quite frankly I had more than one 4th Ed. character with an Aid that would heal and boost his powers simultaneously, which was really convenient (mostly creatures of pure energy and such, but I could see other applications). Save space in 6E and roll Healing into Aid.

Because, honestly, it sucked. Bad. I saw how bad it could be abused. Everyone in the party got an 8d6 Healing Aid, Trigger. And then he shifted his points out of the Multipower slot, and the Healing Aid Triggers all stuck around.

[Chris Goodwin]

Easy enough, just buy our theoretical KA (formerly RKA) with No Range and the Limitation: Drained On A 1:X Ratio With STR. Such a Limitation would also allow you to have EGO Based Killing Attacks or INT based Drains and so on in much the same manner. It just means you must have a certain level of STR to use it, and if you have less you must use less.

It's not really Linked at that point because you don't need to use STR, and it's somewhat different from STR Minimum, too, which is why I propose something a little different.

I wanted to come back to this. There ought to be a way to do this, maybe with a Framework. Maybe an EC, maybe a modified form of it. Bears more thought.

[SSgt Baloo]

I dislike STR adds for two reasons. One you summarize above - why is this only available for some attack powers? Why can't my Eye Gouge Flash be enhanced by STR? Why can't my PD Drain: Bruise? An advantage would solve this.

But this advantage has variable benefit. If you have a 3d6 KA and 45 STR, you double your KA. If you have 3d6 KA and 15 STR, you get a 1/3 increase. The advantage will be on the 45 KA points, so adding 1d6 and adding 3d6 cost the same.

I would rather see the KA, or the eye gouge or bruise, add some dice that are limited by their link to your STR and, presumably, by NO Range on the base attack and added dice. Then, you get what you pay for. You want a 1d6 Claw that is enhanced to 6d6 by your massive 75 STR? OK - buy +5d6, appropriately limited. Can't do this in the current model - you cap at 2d6. You want to add 1d6 to your 5d6 KA for your more modest 15 STR? Also fine - you bought less additional dice, so STR Adds Dice costs you less.

It seems to me that "STR adds damage to (this attack)" should be applied to the STR rather than the attack. Would that fix the problem?

[GamePhil]

I wanted to come back to this. There ought to be a way to do this, maybe with a Framework. Maybe an EC, maybe a modified form of it. Bears more thought.

I'm thinking of a modified form of STR Minimum, so that you have something like: Requires X STR For Every DC Of Attack. In that case, there's also no reason it couldn't be Characteristic Minimum, so you could have Requires X EGO For Every DC Of Attack, or whatever.

[rjcurrie]

I think leaving Gliding as a separate Power is perfectly fine. It doesn't take up that much space and I'm leery of turning too many existing Powers into other Powers with Limitations. There's a certain point where you begin to lose usability because finding the Power you want can get difficult when they're buried under other Powers.

[Silbeg]

In my opinion, the way Flash works (BODY = Segments) makes most flash attacks useless. You need a lot of Flash to get any significant effect. Making it "Total = Segments" would probably work far better and be far more effective.

That's interesting, because in my experience the 5E way of doing flash is perhaps the best I have seen so far in all versions of HERO. It balances far better with the defense (previously, it was Flash DEF was insanely effective, for 5AP you could nullify a 50AP attack). Now, even with the typical 5 points of Flash DEF, you are going to be flashed for an average of 5 segments (2-3 phases) when hit with such an attack. This isn't to say your experiences might be different... but in my games probably 50% or more of targets have no Flash DEF, or if they do, it is only Flash DEF 5.

In many ways, a 10d6 Flash is more devastating to a combatant than a 10d6 EB (we are talking Superheroic levels here, but...)

What I don't like about flash is the inexpensiveness of adding senses. With a simple +5 adder you can add an additional sense, or +10 for a group. So, instead of going with a 10d6 Sight Group Flash, it is even more efficient to go with an 8d6 Sight and Hearing Group Flash (a "flashbang"), which will take out the primary targeting sense, as well as the primary non-targeting sense.

For play balance purposes, this has proved to be way too efficient. I think I would propose that you would need to pay for the flash separately for each sense group.

So, for about the same active points, you could get a 6d6 Sight Group + 6d6 Hearing Group Flash. This would still be very effective in most cases, but really has the feel of being at a more balanced price.

[Silbeg]

Oh yeah, this hasn't been brought up, but as long as we're mentioning Instant Change, can we also bring back Regeneration as an actual Power and not a variation on Healing? From what I saw of your rationale on Absorption (not being a variant of Aid), it was "if it takes more than an extra page to describe, it should be its own Power" (IIRC). Regeneration is almost the same way, since it doesn't actually use Healing rules (i.e. it can apply over and over again), it uses a different Extra Time modifier, and it's a wonky reverse-engineering of a Power made necessary by the original (simpler) Power being eliminated from the game.

JG

I definitely agree on splitting Regeneration out of Healing. Yes, they have something in common, but the 5E/5ER way of doing it is so complicated that people are more likely to get it wrong than right, and for all the reasons that James states above. Especially wonky is the special Regen-only extra-time chart.

But, of course, we could take advantage of it being outside of the realm of normal healing, and allow such things as allowing Regen to work on other effects... Perhaps a power/talent like "Stable Form" would allow Regen to work against Transforms, or something like that.


But, if we aren't going to break it back out, then Regeneration as an effect should be built "correctly". So that we don't have to deal with the hand-waving over max effect, etc., and all of that, it probably should be build with the Trigger advantages, and increase re-use rate. I think if done correctly, it will end up costing about the same, though the additional stacking of Advantages and Disadvantages may make this hard to tell.