Powers Issues -- General Questions

[GamePhil]

I'd like to make a general design philosophy suggestion. I'll give what I consider a couple examples of it that occur in 5e, but it has more implications than that, and I think is sound even if you don't agree with my specific examples.

Don't let system consistency interfere with purchase value.

Well, I sort of agree, and I wouldn't mind seeing a "This Is More/Less Useful Than The Points Indicate" Modifier, but I don't entirely agree with the conclusion. If you're getting an undesirable result by consistently applying the rules, then the rules need to be examined, not just thrown to the side. More options are frequently the result, and are seldom bad things.

For example, I'm completely on board with Damage Shield having to be Continuous, but a lot of the rest I have issue with. My simplest answer: It is not more useful than another Continuous Power, so it should not need a larger Advantage, it's simply a form of Continuous (much as Radius and Line are forms of Area Of Effect). Then, you can further examine Continuous to see if still more forms of it might be made available. Or, you could say that Damage Shield is still a +1/2, but that it can take No Range and Self Only, and if it doesn't you can place the Damage Shield around something else.

[GamePhil]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

I think the main problem there is that most everything else you could call it has similar problems. The best I've seen is "Effect" earlier, but with Special Effect being so core to the game it might be confusing, too.

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

Maybe. Being flavorless is not necessarily bad, since the players provide the flavor.

Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

Probably, though what the Powers are to be is the challenge.

Of these, I think the one that definitely deserves serious consideration is Activate. The contortions I had to go through to build abilities to activate devices in the USPD tell me that we need some standard, easy-to-use rule for that effect.

I would prefer to see Activate folded into a broader power, if possible. It just feels too narrow in effect to me to be a really useful Power, that is, one with enough applicability to see often on character sheets.

I kind of like just using Mind Control against Body, though.

Your other HG articles I need to look at.

—making Succor a distinct Power

Unconcerned.

—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets

Too narrow. Perhaps an Environmental Effect Power, or an expansion of Change Environment.

—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)

We can do both of those now with a Standard Effect Stun Only EB, with Only To Stun for the first and All Or Nothing and Recovers Full Stun When Brought To Consciousness on the second, not sure we need another way.

—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks

I'd prefer a reworking of Missile Deflection to a separate Power.

—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does

All for it. It helps bring characters and vehicles and automatons together.

—an Invulnerability power

Like with a lot of things, I prefer to just use Absolute Effect. I do think those rules should be in the 6th Ed books, though.

[Paragon]

No, I don't mind it's cost. If it were cheaper it'd be harder to fit into Elemental Controls.

I have to point out that using the criteria that nothing costs too much because of frameworks seems, well, a little arcane.

[Paragon]

Well, I sort of agree, and I wouldn't mind seeing a "This Is More/Less Useful Than The Points Indicate" Modifier, but I don't entirely agree with the conclusion. If you're getting an undesirable result by consistently applying the rules, then the rules need to be examined, not just thrown to the side. More options are frequently the result, and are seldom bad things.

In theory I agree, but I've seen enough build systems now over the years that I've concluded this isn't entirely addressable on a systemic level; you can fiddle with costs until hell freezes over, and some things will still come out wrong.

For example, I'm completely on board with Damage Shield having to be Continuous, but a lot of the rest I have issue with. My simplest answer: It is not more useful than another Continuous Power, so it should not need a larger Advantage, it's simply a form of Continuous (much as Radius and Line are forms of Area Of Effect). Then, you can further examine Continuous to see if

Well, personally, I think its overpriced even at Continuous, but that's neither here nor there.

still more forms of it might be made available. Or, you could say that Damage Shield is still a +1/2, but that it can take No Range and Self Only, and if it doesn't you can place the Damage Shield around something else.

Which is tantamount to what I'm talking about though, since that decision is fundamentally subjective in regard to applicability. I'll also note it makes the construction more complicated without really any purpose.

[Chris Goodwin]

I would prefer to see Activate folded into a broader power, if possible. It just feels too narrow in effect to me to be a really useful Power, that is, one with enough applicability to see often on character sheets.

I had come up with a Power of my own called "Toggle". It could flip something between two states. Locking and unlocking a door was the main function, but it could turn a car on or off, or put someone to sleep (though it would probably need a roll against a Characteristic for the latter, though. Activate seems pretty similar to what I was going for.

[Vondy]

Do you like the way its structured, or how much it costs? I don't have anything intrinsically against the way its structured; its that the final costs seem, well, bluntly, ridiculous for what it does for you that I have an issue with. If it was built in a similar fashion, but where it used 5s and 3s where it uses 10s and 5s perhaps, I'd have far less to complain about.

I agree. I don't mind the structure - it makes a weird kind of sense - but the costing seems... a tad high.

[jtelson]

I had come up with a Power of my own called "Toggle". It could flip something between two states. Locking and unlocking a door was the main function, but it could turn a car on or off, or put someone to sleep (though it would probably need a roll against a Characteristic for the latter, though. Activate seems pretty similar to what I was going for.

We've pretty much always used Cosmetic transform for this effect. How did you scale it? or was it an absolute? (I toggle off the Villians AI, the Nuclear Reactor, The Nuclear Bomb?)

[Chris Goodwin]

We've pretty much always used Cosmetic transform for this effect. How did you scale it? or was it an absolute? (I toggle off the Villians AI, the Nuclear Reactor, The Nuclear Bomb?)

Well, I never actually got it designed.... I'm not sure how it would work. Probably would have to scale in some way, maybe be defended against by Power Defense.

[GamePhil]

Which is tantamount to what I'm talking about though, since that decision is fundamentally subjective in regard to applicability. I'll also note it makes the construction more complicated without really any purpose.

I'm confused: how is it fundamentally subjective? Being able to apply Limitations to the Damage Shield is completely consistent with the rest of the game. It further means that Damage Shield is no longer an Advantage that gives a Power Limitations, and it means that Damage Shield without Limitations can be applied to your Entangle or your Force Wall without making exceptions to the rules, and allows you to use your Heat Vision to heat up a gun to force the target to drop it. How is that "without really any purpose"?

[Opal]

It further means that Damage Shield is no longer an Advantage that gives a Power Limitations, and it means that Damage Shield without Limitations ... allows you to use your Heat Vision to heat up a gun to force the target to drop it.

A concrete example like that really drives the point home. Lots of advantges have implicit limitations - like an explosion might damage someone you don't want to damage or whatever - and, even if they didn't, the objection is still 'merely' philosophical. While you could probably just destroy a focus with your heat vision, anyway, putting a damage shield on it seem like a pretty cool (npi) thing that it should be possible to do in a straightforward, intuitive way.

[casualplayer]

Just stop dragging your feet and make TK effectively Ranged STR, price it accordingly, eliminate the implied sorta-Indirect and then you don't need to create a new power called Activate.

Additive should be a new advantage/adder that allows damage stacking a la STR + HTH or STR + HKA.

[ajackson]

Just stop dragging your feet and make TK effectively Ranged STR, price it accordingly, eliminate the implied sorta-Indirect and then you don't need to create a new power called Activate.

Activate is basically ranged skill use, actually.

[GamePhil]

Probability Alteration (DH #4, allows character to alter probabilities affecting him or others)

I think I'd prefer expansion or discussion of Luck to a separate Power like this. I don't know that it's appropriate for all games to have re-rolls, and keeping it as options of Luck might work better.

Object Creation DH #7, allows creation of simple objects)

I'd like to see some more options for Summoning, but I suppose that inanimate objects might be to complicated to not need a separate Power. That is, writing it up as a type of Summon would require Loyalty and a full "character" build, and might not be expensive enough to be appropriately priced.

Activate (DH #14, allows character to activate devices/machines at range)

Could this one be done as part of reworking Dispel? I don't know what it might be called, since Activate/Deactivate doesn't really have a ring to it, but it's basically Dispel in reverse.

Automaton Powers (DH #44, Automaton Powers for all character types)

All for that one, I'd like all Powers that exist in the game to be for all characters. I'd even go so far as to want to include the Cargo from Vehicles, though it would have to be re-worked to make sense in any other context. A new Cargo-like Power that covered bags of holding, a hidden space in a cyborg's artificial arm, and the inside portion of a vehicle, I'd be happy.

[GamePhil]

I had come up with a Power of my own called "Toggle".

Good name, I was just wondering what such a thing would be called.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Q: Should we change the term “Power”?

No. It would needlessly cross-up long-time players of the game, and (as you note) there doesn't seem to be a great alternative. I'd suggest minimizing confusion between Powers and powers by meticulously always referring to comic book superhero-style abilities as "superpowers." If the little-p "powers" was rarely or never used (as abilities built with Powers would be called superpowers, or spells, or equipment, etc.), then over time, the confusion might abate somewhat.

Q: Should we consider renaming some of the Powers?

I go back and forth on this. From a game design standpoint, they should probably be changed, because they're genre-flavored. But changing them does make them rather flavorless, and does upset the apple cart to a degree. I'd say the best compromise would be not to change them just because they "should" be changed in some theoretical sense, and only change the ones that seem to demonstrably confuse people because they imply a specific special effect.

With that in mind, I guess I'd recommend changing Armor, Ego Attack, Energy Blast, Force Field, and Force Wall. If Energy Blast is renamed Blast, I'd leave Hand-To-Hand Attack alone. If Energy Blast is renamed Normal Attack: Ranged, then I'd go ahead and rename Hand-To-Hand Attack to Normal Attack: Hand-To-Hand (to maintain symmetry).

Q: Should we consider adding some new Powers?

I'd like to see all the ones you suggest from your Heroglyphs columns. For the Probability Alteration Power, I think it would be cool if Probability Alteration also had a way of simulating the kind of generalized good or bad fortune currently simulated by Luck and Unluck. This would allow using Probability Alteration to build standard Luck, thereby making Luck a Talent. Also, if you add an Object Creation Power, it might be worth looking at whether or not Force Wall should be folded into it. (Probably not, since FW's walls behave differently from OC's, but it's probably worth kicking the idea around.)

Beyond those, other suggestions I have heard include:

—making Succor a distinct Power
—a power that allows characters to suffocate targets
—a power that allows characters to inflict a Stunned effect on a target without actually doing any STUN or BODY damage
—a power that instantly Knocks Out a target without any physical effects like Knockback or injury (for, e.g., sleep spells)
—a HTH Deflection that does for HTH attacks what Missile Deflection does for Ranged attacks
—a personal Defense Power that provides protection like a Force Wall does
—an Invulnerability power

Succor a separate Power: Yes

Suffocate: Yes (wonky to build a literal suffocation effect currently, perhaps also tie this in with an official way to silence a target that doesn't treat "voice" as a kind of Sense)

Instant Stunned & Instant Knockout: Perhaps two aspects or two levels of the same Power? I dunno on this one. Potentially very useful, but as you've noted elsewhere, there aren't a lot of all-or-nothing effects in the system.

Invulnerability: No strong feeling either way. I'm not sure I'd make it separate Power... it might fit as an optional kind of Damage Reduction or even Life Support. I'd flag it as optional, with a bright red flashing GM warning all over it, and a note pointing out that what what seems to be invulnerability to something in fiction, often turns out to just be a lot of resistance to that thing. Alternately, I think the Absolute Effect Rule from Fantasy HERO also works fine for this.

Q: Should we collapse the Powers down to a very small number and “create” the other effects with Advantages and Limitations?

YES!!!





Okay, no.