Powers Issues -- General Questions

[BobGreenwade]

No it can't. Noetic sense is self-awareness. If you turn invisible to noetic sense, you are no longer aware of yourself, but everyone else remains aware of you. Ditto for all your other examples.

I mis-"spoke" here. I should have said a Noetic Sense, meaning a Sense that would be part of the Noetic Sense Group, not Noesis itself (which you quite correctly define).

Also, in response to a couple of other remarks, a part of what I was trying to do with the "Other" or "Special" category was eliminate it. I neglected to mention that (sorry about that), or the principle that the GM would still be able to add Sense Groups for special setting-specific phenomena.

Your other counter-arguments are mainly valid, and things could work in any number of ways. I actually was less interested in saying that the way I presented the groups are the way they should or must be, which would lead to a lot of pointless arguing, than I was in presenting a manner of thought that could make the Senses a bit better organized and delineated.

[PhilFleischmann]

It's not really necessary for a Sense Group to give information about the external universe to be useful. For one thing, if it's noted as a Sense Group, then it can be affected by Sense-Affecting Powers such as Flash or Images. A person Flashed to Proprioception would be at 0 OCV, half DCV for attacks he can perceive with a Targeting Sense and 0 DCV for all other attacks, and must either watch his feet or make a PER Roll when he walks more than 1" per Phase or he'll fall down.

I don't think the penalties for flashed priprioception should be that harsh. There's a lot more cues for targeting (and perceiving incoming attacks!) than just kinesthetics, balance, et al. Most significantly are sight and touch. If you can still see your target, and your weapon/hands, you still ought to be able to target an attack pretty well. And you can still walk (or even run) fairly well even if you can't feel your legs. Ever walked with both feet asleep? It feels weird, but it's not that hard to do.

We remember the way we move our bodies even when we can't sense the movements.

I'd say loss of proprioception might me -1 or -2 OCV at most, perhaps additional penalties for attacks requiring greater finesse, such as called shots and Martial maneuvers, and probably Rapid Attacks. Maybe -2 to -4 on physical Skill rolls depending on the precision required (maybe more). I don't see much reason for any DCV penalty. Running might require a straight DEX Roll to not fall down, at say, +1 per -2" you slow down, and with penalties for uneven/slippery ground/obstacles/debris in the path, or if sharp turns are required. Or say that running is normal, but has a turn mode while your proprioception is impaired.

Another thought that occurs to me: How 'bout just a -1 for all physical Skill rolls, and any difficulty modifiers are doubled? That way a "normal" task is at -1. A Difficult task that would normally be at -1 is now at -3. A Difficult task that would normally be at -2 is now at -5. etc.

[BobGreenwade]

I was going by the effects of real-world people who have lost proprioception. But for short-term losses such as one might get in a Proprioceptive Flash, the point you make about remembering how one's body works is a valid one; a lesser penalty might be more appropriate.

You know, after these threads are locked, I may just start something over in the Hero System Discussion area just to hash out the possibilities (especially if I learn that Steve decided to keep the Sense Groups as they already are).

[PhilFleischmann]

I was going by the effects of real-world people who have lost proprioception. But for short-term losses such as one might get in a Proprioceptive Flash, the point you make about remembering how one's body works is a valid one; a lesser penalty might be more appropriate.

You know, after these threads are locked, I may just start something over in the Hero System Discussion area just to hash out the possibilities (especially if I learn that Steve decided to keep the Sense Groups as they already are).

I remember discussing this before, although I used the terms "kinesthetic sense" and "sense of balance" specifically, which I guess form the bulk of the proprioceptive group.

[Steve Long]

Hey folx! It's time for me to start reading all the 6E threads, and that means I need to lock them.

Hopefully 15 months has been plenty of time for anyone who wanted to have a say, to have a say. So please, don't start up other threads to try to continue discussions, send me PMs with points you "just have to make," or anything like that. It's time for y'all to sit back, relax, have a frosty beverage, and let me get 6E written.

We definitely appreciate everyone's interest, participation, and ideas! I'm looking forward to reading the posts and seeing what nuggets of wisdom lurk therein. I have no doubt 6E is going to be even better than it would have been because of our fans' enthusiastic efforts at providing us with input and suggestions.