Perks And Talents Issues

[sbarron]

My whole problem with COM can be boiled down to one question...Mary Ann or Ginger? You can't have this argument in HERO, because "technically" the movie star Ginger would have the higher COM. This in the face of direct evidence that people find Mary Ann more attractive. If this ageless argument isn't "dramatic realism," I don't know what is!

[nexus]

Ginger doesn't have the default higher Com because she's a movie star. There's no game based reason why she would. If Com was replaced by Talent "Beautiful" if Ginger got +2 and Mary Anne got +3. Same difference with even more sharp definition. The game cannot take "taste" into account with either system. All the characteristics are generalizations and abstractions. There are many types of strength, Dexterity covers many things, Intellect, well there's talk of redefining but there are many types of intelligence. Does the Professor have high Intellect (a fast thinker. Probably not since he couldn't figure out how to patch a hole on the boat ) or a high "Science!" skill roll? The "Ginger vs Mary Anne" arguments makes assumptions

Also, it's not important with the "audience" thinks. There is no audience for an rpg. How do the characters in the show/game treat as more attractive/appealing would be what determines Com (Or Beauty/Handsome for that matter). You can give them the same amount of both and let role playing decide in either case. You argument seems to be more to get rid of any mechanical measure of appearance at all.

[BobGreenwade]

No, Ginger doesn't have the default higher Com because she's a movie star. There's no game based reason why she would.

Ginger would tend to have a higher PRE and Seduction, but I'd give the two roughly the same COM.

(OTOH Mary Ann is a farm girl, so there may be some kind of fetish working in the poll there....)

[nexus]

Ginger would tend to have a higher PRE and Seduction, but I'd give the two roughly the same COM.

Yep, that's one way to do it and it fits with what I remember from the show. Both were treated as "pretty" but Ginger tended to vamp it up more while Mary Anne was more sweetness and girl next door. I might give them roughly the same Pre (neither had a particularly more forceful or strong personality, maybe Mary Anne a bit higher...) but Ginger has Seduction, Acting and other Pre skills to use hers in more ways. That's what I was saying about granularity. You -could- give Ginger slightly more Com, a point or so) if you felt she "should" have it as an actress without a big game impact but giving her another level of flat perk would make her decidedly more attractive than Mary Anne.

Mary Anne put most of her points into domestics/farm PSs.

But what I'm saying is its not a foregone conclusion that Ginger would have the higher Com and that opinions outside the "setting" really don't matter unless you want to ditch mechanical impact of appearance at all.

(OTOH Mary Ann is a farm girl, so there may be some kind of fetish working in the poll there....)

Not gonna touch that one.

[nexus]

I’d like to apologize if I’ve come across like a fanatic or if I’m derailing the thread. Some people don’t like Comeliness as a concept and I don’t think I’ll change their wrong. It’s a valid opinion and I don’t want to shut down their fun and preferences. What I’d like is to have Comeliness included in 6th because it would be one less reason (however small) for me to avoid it and if I do pick it up, less of a headache to convert too if it’s present even as an optional characteristic. Actually, I’m somewhat surprised I feel so strongly about it. But to be fair the discussion belongs in the Characteristic thread anyway.

[SAVeira]

Q: Should Followers, Vehicles, and Bases be costed differently?

The changes suggest sound good.


Q: Should we add or remove any Talents?

Add the Universal "Enhancers" from The Ulitmate Skill. I have been using those for years before as house rules.

[dsatow]

Q: Should Followers, Vehicles, and Bases be costed differently?

I'd agree. However, I've seen a lot of people create vehicles which are just a way to get more actions in a turn or to do more damage. i would suggest that any autonomous Follower of Vehicle(AI-robot) should be run by the GM to prevent this kind of twiddlyness.


Q: Should we add or remove any Talents?

Actually, I think you should keep in the core any talent which crosses genres. As an example, if it crosses Fantasy, Sci-Fi, and Modern, it should be included. Lightsleep might be used in all three and should be kept. Beast speech really isn't used much in modern or sci-fi and shouldn't.

I also add "Heavysleep" to my list. It allows a character to get a good nights rest anywhere with a slight side effect of not easily aroused when things go wrong. A common trick as a GM to make a player weary is to keep them waking each night or make getting to sleep hard in the enviroment. A players like this isn't affected by such problems, they can sleep anywhere. Example: Hicks in Aliens is sleeping during the drop.

I think "Wealth" is really broken as described. I would remove the dollar amounts from the wealth description or do like they do in other games and make it a like a skill check.

[PhilFleischmann]

Q: Should Followers, Vehicles, and Bases be costed differently?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think the general cost of 1 point per 5 Character Points is fine, but I also think that a couple of specific changes need to be made. First, as with Summon, I don’t think that any of these Perks should get a cost reduction based on their Disadvantages. The Disadvantages generally taken for them typically don’t in any meaningful way inhibit their usefulness to the character.

I have to strongly disagree with this. A Disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't would any points, but a Disadvantage the IS a disadvantage should be worth points. All other things being equal, a Follower who is afraid of heights is less useful than one who isn't. All other things being equal, a Summoned servant that is Vulnerable to holy water is less useful than one that isn't. All other things being equal, a Base that comes with frequent government monitoring and meddling is less useful than one that doesn't.

Yes, it may be a very good idea, as some others have said, to include some text about what kinds of Disads should really count for these Perks (and Summon) and which shouldn't. A Follower with a Code vs. Killing is not a disadvantage if the PC also has CvK, since you shouldn't want your follower to kill any more than you would. But there are plenty of truly meaningful, disadvantageous Disadvanteges that should reduce the cost of Followers, Bases, Vehicles, and Summoned beings.

Also, particularly on the subject of Bases, a few suggestions:

1. Just like you said on the General Rules thread, you don't want characters to pay for ordinary items like cell phones and cars. The same should hold true for houses. If a base is nothing more than a place to hold meetings and press conferences, with bedrooms and maybe a kitchen, then it's just a house. If it's an actual fortress, with extraordinary defenses, or concealment, complete with the Crime-Alert computer and a criminology lab, then you pay for it.

2. Eliminate the Size cost of Bases. The size of a base has no game-useful purpose, therefore it shouldn't cost anything. The *content* of the base is what's important, not the floorspace, nor the size of the grounds. It goes along with #1, above - don't make characters buy bathrooms and bedrooms and hallways and ordinary kitchens. A criminology lab that grants a 17- Criminology roll is game-functionally the same regardless of whether it takes up 100 square feet or 1000 square feet. Yes, the size of Vehicles matters, since it determines how much cargo/passengers you can transport, but empty space in a Base (or spaces with ordinary things like toilets and beds) has no game effect. A Base's cost should only be determined by its defensive capabilities, its weapons, special sensors and other equipment, its hidden-ness, and its labs - not by how big the front yard is, or how many people the diningroom can accomodate.

3. I've never quite agreed with the location costs listed for Bases. It seems to me that more remote locations are less useful (and should cost less, not more). The closer the Base is to where you need to go, the closer to "where the action is", the better.

4. There should be some provision for mobile bases - as distinct from vehicles. By this I mean a base that can be moved with some difficulty or very slowly. If it can move at "combat-useful" speed, then it's a Vehicle. But a mobile Base would be considered a stationary object with respect to combat. For example, a floating island - sure you could move it from the Atlantic to the Pacific, but it would take weeks or months to do so. Likewise an orbiting space station - you can, with effort, change its orbit from equatorial to polar, or its altitude, etc.

One Talent problem I noticed: Simulate Death should have a Limitation to the effect that the character can't move or do anything or sense his surroundings while in simulated death. Nothing in the mechanics of its current build prevents the "dead" person from acting and sensing as a normal person.

[BobGreenwade]

I have to strongly disagree with this. A Disadvantage that isn't a disadvantage isn't would any points, but a Disadvantage the IS a disadvantage should be worth points. All other things being equal, a Follower who is afraid of heights is less useful than one who isn't. All other things being equal, a Summoned servant that is Vulnerable to holy water is less useful than one that isn't. All other things being equal, a Base that comes with frequent government monitoring and meddling is less useful than one that doesn't.

Yes, it may be a very good idea, as some others have said, to include some text about what kinds of Disads should really count for these Perks (and Summon) and which shouldn't. A Follower with a Code vs. Killing is not a disadvantage if the PC also has CvK, since you shouldn't want your follower to kill any more than you would. But there are plenty of truly meaningful, disadvantageous Disadvanteges that should reduce the cost of Followers, Bases, Vehicles, and Summoned beings.

I'd just been thinking recently along the same lines. If the cost of Disadvantages isn't figured into the cost of a Follower, Vehicle, etc., then there's no real reason (other than concept) to give them Disadvantages. If my Follower is Hunted by Doctor Destroyer, then by golly that's a Disadvantage! It contributes to story complexity, and it complicates not only the Follower's life but the senior hero's life as well. Similarly, if my space explorers have their own starship (and pay points for it), then there should be a cost break if it can't enter atmospheres, takes extra damage from plasma weapons, or has a curse of bad luck.

Like Phil says, there should be some clarifying text as to what Disadvantages are appropriate, but the default method should be that Disadvantages do give a cost break, not that they don't.

[nexus]

I'd just been thinking recently along the same lines. If the cost of Disadvantages isn't figured into the cost of a Follower, Vehicle, etc., then there's no real reason (other than concept) to give them Disadvantages. If my Follower is Hunted by Doctor Destroyer, then by golly that's a Disadvantage! It contributes to story complexity, and it complicates not only the Follower's life but the senior hero's life as well. Similarly, if my space explorers have their own starship (and pay points for it), then there should be a cost break if it can't enter atmospheres, takes extra damage from plasma weapons, or has a curse of bad luck.

Like Phil says, there should be some clarifying text as to what Disadvantages are appropriate, but the default method should be that Disadvantages do give a cost break, not that they don't.

I agree here. I house ruled it in fact for followers, duplication, summon and multiform.

[SAVeira]

I'd just been thinking recently along the same lines. If the cost of Disadvantages isn't figured into the cost of a Follower, Vehicle, etc., then there's no real reason (other than concept) to give them Disadvantages. If my Follower is Hunted by Doctor Destroyer, then by golly that's a Disadvantage! It contributes to story complexity, and it complicates not only the Follower's life but the senior hero's life as well. Similarly, if my space explorers have their own starship (and pay points for it), then there should be a cost break if it can't enter atmospheres, takes extra damage from plasma weapons, or has a curse of bad luck.

Like Phil says, there should be some clarifying text as to what Disadvantages are appropriate, but the default method should be that Disadvantages do give a cost break, not that they don't.

This is one of the reason, I have have been think that perhaps, the purpose of Disadvantages should change. Now we could see how a Follower's Disadvantages would work, but then how would a Vehicle's or Base's work? Just how would Heroic Points work for non-character?

[ajackson]

Q: Should Followers, Vehicles, and Bases be costed differently?

It might be nice to have a way of distinguishing between KITT, who shows up in every adventure, and various vehicles which might be theoretically available but are pretty much never used.

[SAVeira]

It might be nice to have a way of distinguishing between KITT, who shows up in every adventure, and various vehicles which might be theoretically available but are pretty much never used.

I would argue that KITT is a character in his own right, rather then a normal vehicle.

[ajackson]

I would agree that KITT is a character in his own right, rather then a normal vehicle.

Same thing goes for vehicles in most mecha games. I've seen this be a problem in supers games -- if character A builds his giant mecha as OIF suit, and character B builds his giant mecha as a vehicle, character B will be a lot more powerful.

A variant I've been pondering is some sort of 'pay as you go' scheme. Basically, the vehicle itself would be rather cheap, but you'd need to pay to make use of it in the adventure, using plot points or something. This also works for equipment, and really for a wide variety of advantages that come up really rarely, but are very significant when they appear. Thus, if you have an alien spaceship in your basement, it doesn't cost you very much most of the time, but if you bring it out of the basement and start using it for orbital fire support, it suddenly costs a bunch more.

[steamteck]

I agree here. I house ruled it in fact for followers, duplication, summon and multiform.

I probably should do that for summon myself.