Perks And Talents Issues

[steamteck]

If it were moot, I wouldn't have bothered taking the time to create this forum. I'm perfectly open to good arguments that change my mind. I have yet to see any such argument re: keeping Comeliness, but that doesn't mean changing my mind is impossible.

Glad to hear it but I knew that anyway! I'll keep plugging away though I think I made my case as I see it
What'll I do in 6th edition about the most beautiful in the land is a valid question however. I have players who want a character as pretty as Brainiac 5 is smart and would be willing to pay much more for it than current price if need be.. a perk like GURPS just doesn't cut it for them.

[Lord Liaden]

I have my own ways of using Comeliness in-game, but since this is the Perks and Talents thread I think I'll take it over to Characteristics.

[Hugh Neilson]

While they are in a sense Example Powers, I'd oppose moving them into the Power descriptions because I think that would make them too hard to find for folks whose games use a lot of them. They should probably appear after the Power descriptions, though.

Actually, moving all talents and other sample powers to their own section wouldn't hurt. Less to page through when building from scratch.

[JmOz]

I'm ambivalent on the issue of whether to count Disadvantages, so I won't really weigh in on this. I can see both sides. But I'm with you on the over-cost issue; it makes characters like the Golden Age Johnny Thunder much easier to build.

The only reason I see for keeping the over the cost is the Johnny Thunder type characters, if Thunderbolt is a 1250 point character (costing 250 points) and Johhny is a 100 point plus thunderbolt character in a 350 point game there is going to be some balance issues...I actualy would personaly like to see the overcharge be applyed to all of the 5:1 powers instead of seeing them it go away

[Enforcer84]

I am a talent hound and strongly prefer to construct genre or package specific talents to use for heroic games than to use open-ended powers, which is more appropriate for superheroic games, IMO. The more talents the merrier. On the other hand, talents are essentially a very convenient shorthand for things built with skills or powers. As such, I would present the talents section as an alternative way of expressing the extant powers and skills formats and treat the talents theirin as examples. If you really wanted a super-extensive set of talents, they could be included in THE ULTIMATE TALENT. In terms of "all the rules in one book" (my mantra) this would be consistent because talents are built with existing mechanics (skills and powers). It would be no different than the until super-powers database, but for cook talents. And I would pay blood for that book, esp. if it incl. perks, though an Ultimate Perquisite would probably come in as a strong draw for me as well.

In terms of Perks I would like to see an option for Contact that allows for "this guy has a menagerie of old and colorful acquaintances..." It would use the X3 multiplier and the character would have to pay for the most useful and most well disposed possible contact, but accept that not all contacts will be that good, and sometimes the GM may say no. This allows a laundry list of contacts from adventures past, while giving the GM flexibility enough to throw something in to move the plot along (and make the players life "interesting" on occassion). "You rotten scoundrel, I never thought you'd show your face here again after you...."

I would also like to see some money options: activation or skill rolls, possible modifiers or adders, etc.

As for talents, I would like to see a talent for modifying interaction rolls. The default would probably be "good looking," but it might also be defined as other special effects like resistance is, which would impact how it was applied. Mike Hammer was defined as ugly, but still had a way with women because they responded to what amounted to "animal magnetism."

So Mike was Low COM high PRE?

I like talents a lot but at the end of the gaming session they are just power builds at a heroic level IMO.

But I'd keep them and go ahead and make more, I love them

I do think there should be something of an overhaul on Perks; contacts and rep make sense, like VDM I'd like to see something done with Money and as also mentioned above I think that some of the Fringe Benefits need to be expanded on.

I've never built a follower more powerful than my hero, so I can't say yay or neigh there.
Vehicles, Followers, Computers and Bases seem fine for me.

Oh and since the alternative to COM is a talent/perk/reputation modifier, I'll sneak in again that I think the stat should stay. It's found use in my campaigns and the variance I'd want for a talent/perk/whatever would be so large as to simply make the change unnessesary. changing it from 2/1 pts to 1/1 point would make sense to me though.

[Lucius]

I can speak for Steamteck and I have characters make Com rolls are complimentary to some social skills pretty often.

The perk option doesn't give that relative number I like. I really find it a big hole in GURPS. There can be no most beautiful in the land when all you have is a few layers of perk.

And this is a problem, how?

I don't see how there really CAN be a "most beautiful in the land." Oh sure, I'm fond of stating as if it were an indisputable fact that Kris Zeimer is the most beautiful woman ever photographed, and that Gillian Anderson is the most beautiful woman ever to star in a TV show, but not everyone agrees with me. (Can you believe I can't even FIND photos of Kris Ziemer online!?! And images of that Brittany Pike person are everywhere...)

But if you have to have one (for purposes of answering the question when someone asks a magic mirror) then I don't see why it can't still be a perk. There can only be one "Head of State" in the kingdom too....

Lucius Alexander

The Palindromedary intones: In the end, there can be only One....

[TheQuestionMan]

I've always thought that COM was a useless characteristic. IMO it can best be represented as a perk. 1 pt=attractive, 2=good looking...5=unearthly beauty or something to that effect.

I second this one.

Good point

QM

[Lucius]

I want to see you rein in the rampant “Perk Inflation.” Lots of perks I don’t see a reason for existing at all. If I may quote from a recent discussion:

What the perk gives you is the ability to avoid entanglements.

I thought you used Desolidification or Teleport to avoid Entanglements?

Okay, more seriously: No, it is not quite the case that “What the perk gives you is the ability to avoid entanglements.”

What the presence of such “Perks” as “license to – (marry, practice law, practice medicine, etc.)” does is create entanglements that would never have existed in previous incarnations of the system – EXCEPT for those characters that logically should have such entanglements due to Disadvantages (Hunted by Police – definitely not a licensed PI) or background (just arrived by Time Machine from the future – your medical license is no good, it wasn’t issued yet!) or actions or events in game (now that your cover is blown and you’re known as the Masked Vigilante, you’ve lost your job at the law firm and they’re going to disbar you.)

In other words: They’re a solution to a problem that only exists because they do.

In other other words: Eliminate these kinds of perks from the game, and you eliminate the problem. They simply don’t have any need to exist.

Conversely, if I've got the Paramedic, Medical Science, and Profession: Physician skills, why would I NOT be a licensed doctor?

If supergenius X walks in the doorway and says, "Step aside, only I have the necessary skills to save this man's life!"...well, who's going to believe the guy if he has no credentials?

Which is not answering the question.

The question was, “if I’ve got Paramedic, Medical Science, and Profession: Physician skills, why would I NOT be a licensed doctor?”

The question you are answering is, “If I’m not a licensed doctor, why can’t I practice medicine?” But that’s not the question I asked.

Or to try to simplify the point:

Having a license to practice a profession (or things like Perk: Right to Marry, etc.) is nothing more or less than the SPECIAL EFFECT of having certain skills and/or background elements.

Your argument seems to be that if the player has not spent points on the Perk, the character therefore does not have a license. This is not the case. By that logic, if I have the freebie 1 pt Transport Familiarity, or even spend points on Driving skill, but don’t spend a point on Driver’s License, I’m an unlicensed driver. If my character does not have Perk: Legally Married, does that mean my character and DNPC are “living in sin?” If I don’t have Perk: BA or BS, MA or MS, or PhD, or at least High School Diploma, does it follow that my character is a dropout? Does my Faithful Dog Follower require another Perk to avoid the entanglement of the dogcatcher’s net?

Lucius Alexander

Yes, my palindromedary has a license valid in all jurisdictions that require licensing for palindromedaries, and no, I did NOT have to pay points for it!

[JmOz]

I can speak for Steamteck and I have characters make Com rolls are complimentary to some social skills pretty often.

The perk option doesn't give that relative number I like. I really find it a big hole in GURPS. There can be no most beautiful in the land when all you have is a few layers of perk.

If we model it after the Rep perk it would allow for infinite levels, it just would have moved from characteristics to Perk

Beutiful +1d6 PRE, +1 to PRE Skills, in appropriate situations

[nexus]

And this is a problem, how?

I don't see how there really CAN be a "most beautiful in the land." Oh sure, I'm fond of stating as if it were an indisputable fact that Kris Zeimer is the most beautiful woman ever photographed, and that Gillian Anderson is the most beautiful woman ever to star in a TV show, but not everyone agrees with me. (Can you believe I can't even FIND photos of Kris Ziemer online!?! And images of that Brittany Pike person are everywhere...)

But if you have to have one (for purposes of answering the question when someone asks a magic mirror) then I don't see why it can't still be a perk. There can only be one "Head of State" in the kingdom too....

Lucius Alexander

The Palindromedary intones: In the end, there can be only One....

Realistically, there is no such thing as the "Most Beautiful in the Land"; ideas and opinions on attractiveness are going to vary. (I think Halle Berry is gorgeous, my friend thinks she has the eyes of a serial killer) But Hero doesn't simulate realism and in many genre there is such a thing as the "Most beautiful/handsome" person in the kingdom, land, world, etc

If we model it after the Rep perk it would allow for infinite levels, it just would have moved from characteristics to Perk

Beautiful +1d6 PRE, +1 to PRE Skills, in appropriate situations

Fair point, it still seems a bit like reinventing the wheel to me (Com as it stands does those things and if you don't want to waste points on it you don't have to) and loses the sense of granularity that comes from having Com as a characteristic but it's better than losing the idea of it entirely since it's apparently a done deal. I won't like it but it's not a major deal breaker for me. I'd want such a perk to be open ended with no "maximum rating " at least.

[BobGreenwade]

Having a license to practice a profession (or things like Perk: Right to Marry, etc.) is nothing more or less than the SPECIAL EFFECT of having certain skills and/or background elements.

Not necessarily. Having the needed knowledge and skills to be a doctor does not automatically grant a license to practice medicine, for example.

[Hugh Neilson]

Not necessarily. Having the needed knowledge and skills to be a doctor does not automatically grant a license to practice medicine, for example.

The question, I think, is not whether this is true in real life, but whether it matters in game. What does the license add, in game terms? Is it more valuable than having red hair or being left handed? Both could be written into a game if desired (just as presence or absence of a medical license can) but neither would generally be viewed as anything more than background.

[nexus]

The question, I think, is not whether this is true in real life, but whether it matters in game. What does the license add, in game terms? Is it more valuable than having red hair or being left handed? Both could be written into a game if desired (just as presence or absence of a medical license can) but neither would generally be viewed as anything more than background.

Being a licensed doctor does carry some advantages; it could make some cover story more plausible, get access to certain equipment and facilities for instance. It would be a campaign to campaign thing though and most of the advantages wouldn't be directly mechanical so the pricing should be variable but that goes without saying. In some games most perks would be a sfx in some they could be of critical importance.

[steamteck]

And this is a problem, how?

I don't see how there really CAN be a "most beautiful in the land." Oh sure, I'm fond of stating as if it were an indisputable fact that Kris Zeimer is the most beautiful woman ever photographed, and that Gillian Anderson is the most beautiful woman ever to star in a TV show, but not everyone agrees with me. (Can you believe I can't even FIND photos of Kris Ziemer online!?! And images of that Brittany Pike person are everywhere...)

But if you have to have one (for purposes of answering the question when someone asks a magic mirror) then I don't see why it can't still be a perk. There can only be one "Head of State" in the kingdom too....

Lucius Alexander


The Palindromedary intones: In the end, there can be only One....

In fiction and fairy tales there is definitely the fairest in the land. I also don't see why its OK to make this a perk but we need to know numbers of everything else. In GURPS style you could have stuff like "Strong Will", Impressive, unflappable, Hard to kill "etc in place of other characteristics. I really don't like any of that personally. IMO 6th should make it easier to model things not drop stuff and replace them with less meat.

[steamteck]

The question, I think, is not whether this is true in real life, but whether it matters in game. What does the license add, in game terms? Is it more valuable than having red hair or being left handed? Both could be written into a game if desired (just as presence or absence of a medical license can) but neither would generally be viewed as anything more than background.

I guess it depends on the GM and setting. For me in some of campaigns its meaningful in others not so but having the perk definably adds depth and flexibility.