Perks And Talents Issues

[steamteck]

You know I do.

[rjcurrie]

Here's my idea for a possible way Com could be written up.

Comeliness: This characteristic measures the character's aesthetic appeal. It may represent beauty, impressiveness or anything else that appeals to the senses. Every 5 points of Com over 8 gives a +1 bonus on Interaction skills and +1d6 to Inspirational/Positive Pre attacks in situations where the GM feels it’s appropriate. Otherwise Com’s effects are primarily role playing. Hero System assumes Com is based on Human ideals but this will not be true for all campaigns. GMs wishing a more “realistic” simulation can ignore this characteristic and instead have the player purchase Skill Levels and Pre Bonuses Limited as appropriate. Comeliness costs 1 point per point of Characteristic.


The increased cost is due the complimentary roll being replaced by set bonuses. It comes in at 106 words and its off the top of my head but I think could provide a good starting point at least.

It works for me but I could see objections based on it behaving differently than other characteristics.

[BobGreenwade]

It works for me but I could see objections based on it behaving differently than other characteristics.

Some of what Nexus posted could be modified to fix that objection, such as saying that a character can use his COM Roll as Complementary to Interaction Skills (instead of +1 per 5 points over 8). But I think he has a good idea overall.

[nexus]

It works for me but I could see objections based on it behaving differently than other characteristics.

Com already works like other Characteristics though (A Com roll is complimentary to Interaction skills and Pre attacks when the GM thinks its applicable) and there's no reason you couldn't base skills on Com aside from preference yet one of the main complaints seems to be that "it has no function" so I thought to give it more solid benefits to find some sort of happy medium.

[Niles]

On another Perks-related note, I'm of the opinion that Contacts are currently a tad too expensive. I'm not sure if others would agree with me, though, so I'll see whether I'm alone before trying to sell any changes.

Contacts are too expensive, likewise access, anonymity and deep cover (which could probably be folded into a single more general perk) and the 1 point fringe benefits.

[rjcurrie]

Contacts are too expensive, likewise access, anonymity and deep cover (which could probably be folded into a single more general perk) and the 1 point fringe benefits.

I have no problem with any of them.

[sbarron]

I still say that the Hutt PC that spent 10 points to get a 20 COM is going to get screwed. The GM is rightly never going to think its "appropriate" for a Hutt to get a bonus to his Interaction skills with humans because of the Hutt's "aesthetic appeal." But if you give the Hutt the bonus anyway (because he did spend the points), then really all he bought was +2 to all Interaction skills for 10 points, which has nothing to do with "aesthetic appeal" at all.

More importantly, Nexus, I don't think you can include "impressiveness" in your definition of COM. PRE is already defined as "a character's forcefulness, charisma, bravery, and leadership qualities -- in short, his impressiveness." All that leaves us with is "beauty and anything else that appeals to the senses." Which brings us back to the problem of universal appeal vs. cultural/racial appeal that is at the root of why I don't think COM should be a stat.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like we're going in circles here. The good news is we only have another 18 months to go...

[nexus]

I still say that the Hutt PC that spent 10 points to get a 20 COM is going to get screwed. The GM is rightly never going to think its "appropriate" for a Hutt to get a bonus to his Interaction skills with humans because of the Hutt's "aesthetic appeal." But if you give the Hutt the bonus anyway (because he did spend the points), then really all he bought was +2 to all Interaction skills for 10 points, which has nothing to do with "aesthetic appeal" at all.

First that is kind of a extreme example. How many players that are familiar with Star Wars are going to buy a Hutts' Com through the roof, at least not without some reason? As I said in my suggested write up Com is based on human ideals.

Secondly if it does come up and doesn't work the GM should inform the Hutt's player to spend his points differently and talk with him about what he's trying to achieve. Hero is very flexible but with that flexibility comes comes responsibility.
Hutts don't have high Com from a human standpoint. If that's not true in the campaign (Most if not all of the characters will be Hutts or some other race that might find obese big eyed slugs more aesthetically pleasing, for example) then Com should be based on that standard and the Hutts' 20 Com might be fine. There is also the odd possibility there is "something" about this Hutt that is aesthetically more appealing than others, odd as that is but it's a possibility. Maybe he has really beautiful skin coloration, eyes and a melodic pleasing voice. Hero is all about sfx and high Com doesn't necessarily mean you want to date it. To get slightly more complicated, if the GM feels it's appropriate there is no reason he can't give the Hutt character a small limitation on their Com if he feels it's going to be even more limited than the default. These things should be talked out with the GM.

More importantly, Nexus, I don't think you can include "impressiveness" in your definition of COM.

You never heard or known someone that looked impressive but really didn't have that strong a personality? Pre represents actual personality, IMO. Com is is appearances.

All that leaves us with is "beauty and anything else that appeals to the senses." Which brings us back to the problem of universal appeal vs. cultural/racial appeal that is at the root of why I don't think COM should be a stat.

It's been my experience that in the "dramatic" genres that appeal is more or less universal. The blonde white Jungle Queen is incredibly beautiful...even to the natives that look almost nothing like, Twi'leck dancers are "teh hawt" even though they have tails growing out of their heads and completely bald, etc. I'm not claiming its "realistic" but it does fit under "dramatic simulation" IMO. And the reason I explicitly put in the option to use limited Pre and Skill level in write to cover those that wanted more "realism" in their setting/game.

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel like we're going in circles here. The good news is we only have another 18 months to go...

Mainly I'm trying to come up with compromise that keeps the game accessible and fun for as many players as possible, myself included and addresses at least some of the issues raised about Com. But if a GM or group doesn't want to use Com they don't have too, apparently quite a few have been doing just that for years and having it listed in 6th edition would in no way change that.

I don't see how it ruins the game to keep it in the book at all, lump it under optional characteristics and leave a blank line or two on the official character sheets to write in optional characteristics and I'll be okay with it. Like I said earlier, it does not have to be either/or and have an official "right" answer. If you don't like Com as a characteristic don't use it but let those that do like it have it. It only becomes an issue if you play in their games. And even then you don't have to invest points in it and they can't in yours.

You are correct though, I don't think any minds are going to be changed and I'm also pretty sure it's going to axed regardless so I wouldn't worry too much at this point. Those that want it gone have probably already "won".

Edit Some don't like Comeliness as a concept. That's cool and I don't think any argument will convince them otherwise. To be fair, I don't think I could be talked into disliking it either. Unfortunately for some of us, Steve Long seems to be one of the former. At best I'm hoping he'll consider keeping Com as an optional characteristic.

[Susano]

It's been my experience that in fiction, particularly more "dramatic" genres that appeal is more or less universal. The blonde white Jungle Queen is incredibly beautiful...even to the natives that look nothing like her. Twi'lecks are "teh hawt" even though they have tails growing out of their heads, etc. I'm not claiming its "realistic" but it does fit under "dramatic simulation" IMO. The reason I put in the option to use limited Pre and Skill level in write to cover those that wanted more "realism" in their setting.

Dejah Toris is the most beautiful woman in the solar system, despite being red, a Martian, and laying eggs.

[steamteck]

Dejah Toris is the most beautiful woman in the solar
system, despite being red, a Martian, and laying eggs.

Perfect example. Also,Think of all these feline aliens who show that are supposedly so incredibly hot and beautiful. Even Vincent "Vincent" from beauty and the beast was described by a woman ( not Catherine) as "beautiful just different".

[Susano]

Perfect example. Also,Think of all these feline aliens who show that are supposedly so incredibly hot and beautiful. Even Vincent "Vincent" from beauty and the beast was described by a woman ( not Catherine) as "beautiful just different".

Catgirls = teh hotness!

[Lucius]

Perfect example. Also,Think of all these feline aliens who show that are supposedly so incredibly hot and beautiful. Even Vincent "Vincent" from beauty and the beast was described by a woman ( not Catherine) as "beautiful just different".

Ah yes, Vincent. The cat boy from before cat girls got so popular.

Lucius Alexander

So, how much COM does a palindromedary have?

[GamePhil]

Even Vincent "Vincent" from beauty and the beast was described by a woman ( not Catherine) as "beautiful just different".

Indeed, a perfect example of someone who made the 8- roll for his exotic look, not an example of a character necessarily high COM. But, yes, for any game that doesn't want to take into account different cultures, species, and tastes, COM is a reasonable substitute.

[nexus]

Indeed, a perfect example of someone who made the 8- roll for his exotic look, not an example of a character necessarily high COM. But, yes, for any game that doesn't want to take into account different cultures, species, and tastes, COM is a reasonable substitute.

That last sentence seems a little snarky but maybe I'm just misunderstanding your tone?

But I'd say its more that games that are aiming for a more cinematic than "realistic" style or where there aren't going to be major differences in culture or species (taste is hard to take into account. If I give a character +5 "Beauty" and describe her as Paris Hilton there will be disagreement) Com is fine. If the GM feels that yes, it's an abstraction but just as much of one as other characteristics, prefers the granularity it offers and will adjust as he sees fit, its fine too. There should be a "realism" (or just opinion) toggle instead of just axing something some people enjoy. It doesn't seem to gain that much streamlining, is an imposition one side and eliminates some flexibility.

[nexus]

Dejah Toris is the most beautiful woman in the solar system, despite being red, a Martian, and laying eggs.

And Raven (thought I know you're not a fan of the books ) who was the most beautiful woman in her world even impressing the "elves" of the setting with her raw physical appeal.