Characteristics Issues

[Klaus Mogensen]

One "all combat" level becomes a multipower of +1 OCV, +1 DCV, +1 OECV, +1 ODCV, +1/2 DC, 0 END, so 5 points for pool + 5 for slots = 10 points and they get limited from there.

So how do we limit them? Ranged Physical Combat Only, HTH Physical Combat Only or Mental Combat Only could be 5 points each.

Since when has Mental Comat been derived from DEX?

That means Martial Arts costs need to go up, though. +2 OCV and +2d6 damage with a single maneuver is clearly worth more than 3 - 5 points.

I'm in favor of redesigning Martial Arts maneuvers as a few 0-point maneuvers and then use CSLs to add OCV, DCV and/or DC to these and/or the standard maneuvers. It is simpler than the current system and much more flexible.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

Since when has Mental Comat been derived from DEX?

It's not, but ECV is provided with "all combat" levels, which is my starting point for valuing combat levels which provide less than "all combat".

[ajackson]

If it costs 5 points for +1 OCV with any attack

Actually, I was thinking 5 points for an 'all combat' level. An OCV level would be 4 points.

[ghost-angel]

Actually, I was thinking 5 points for an 'all combat' level. An OCV level would be 4 points.

Only if you're using the Optional CSLs from Ultimate Skill.
Otherwise there is no 4 Point Combat Skill Level.

[The Main Man]

Since when has Mental Comat been derived from DEX?


I'm in favor of redesigning Martial Arts maneuvers as a few 0-point maneuvers and then use CSLs to add OCV, DCV and/or DC to these and/or the standard maneuvers. It is simpler than the current system and much more flexible.

- Klaus

Ditto.

"Martial Arts" can become Complementary Background Skills (Science perhaps?).

[ajackson]

Only if you're using the Optional CSLs from Ultimate Skill. Otherwise there is no 4 Point Combat Skill Level.

For clarity: what is currently an 8 point level would be a 5 point level. What is currently a 5 point level would be a 4 point level.

[Klaus Mogensen]

For clarity: what is currently an 8 point level would be a 5 point level. What is currently a 5 point level would be a 4 point level.

I think the current 5-point levels should be 3 points. The progression would be:
1 point: +1 on a single skill or attack; CSL can't be used for DCV or exchanged for DC
2 points: +1 on three related skills or attacks; CSL can be used for DCV or exchanged for DC at a 4:1 exchange rate
3 points: +1 on a broad group of skills or attacks; CSL can be used for DCV or exchanged for DC as above
5 points: +1 all combat; CSL can be used for DCV or exchanged for DC as above
8 points: Overall level

I set the CSLC exchange rate at 4:1 to make it slightly cheaper than buying 1d6N, 0 END (7½ points). If Powers and STR are made 0-END as a default (a change I support), the exchange rate would be 3:1.

- Klaus

[Lucius]

Okay, this is pretty crude and probably full of holes, but this is what I came up with:

END STUN REC proposal

First, assume that END and STUN are combined. If the concept of
"Figured" is retained, perhaps base it on CON. For the moment, I'll call
the new statistic Vitality (VIT)

Introduce another "toggle" in the game, a decision like whether or not
to use Knockback. The heroic default would be "Endurance rules in
effect" and the superheroic default would be "Endurance rules not in
effect."

Endurance not in effect:

No energy cost to actions or powers, by default.


Automatic recovery and extended action:

At the end of every turn up to the fourth consecutive turn, characters
that have lost VIT may make a CON roll and will recover 2 pts of VIT for
every point by which the roll was made. The only levels that apply to
this roll are specialized endurance "levels" because it is part of the
Bookkeeping phase and ordinary levels can only be assigned during one of
the character's regular action phases.

At the judge's option, if a combat or other action sequence exceeds 4
turns, at the end of each turn thereafter each active character must
make a CON roll to avoid losing 1d6 VIT. A character spending at least
one phase in a turn taking a recovery or resting (see below) does not
lose VIT in this way. Again, only specialized levels apply to this roll.

Pushing:

Pushing STR, Movement, or a Power, costs VIT
Push by* * * * * costs
5 Active Pts* * * 1d6
10 Pts* * * * * * * * 2d6* ***
15 Pts* * * * * * * * 3d6
20 Pts* * * * * * * * 4d6


While this loss may render a character unconscious, it should not be
compared to CON for purposes of determining if a character is stunned.

Held Phase Recovery:

A character who has held a phase until the next phase comes around, thus
losing an action, has had a chance to catch their breath and may roll a
recovery as described above under automatic recovery except that if the
phase was being held for the specific purpose of recovering, any levels
that could apply (overall levels, levels with CON rolls) could be
applied to the roll that phase. The roll may not be made if the
character took any damage while holding the phase, or aborted to a
defensive maneuver such as dodge.

Resting:

Choosing to rest is like holding a phase, except that the character is 0
DCV, and on a successful roll regains VIT points equal to the
character's CON score. The character also my not move, or use any but
the most passive skills or powers (such as Concealment, Stealth,
Perception, etc) or exert more than 10 Active Points of any Power unless
that Power has the Effortless Advantage (see below.) A character may not
hold a phase and then declare "resting" right before their next phase.
The intention to Rest must be declared at the beginning of the phase, and
the 0 DCV applies from that point.

New Advantage: Effortless (+1/4)

An Effortless Power never has no energy cost associated with it, and
may be activated or maintained even while Resting or Recovering.
For a +1/2 Advantage the Power may be Pushed but otherwise never drains VIT.



Endurance Rules in Effect:

STR, Movement, and Powers have an energy cost unless they have the
Advantage Effortless. Cost is 1 point per 5 Active Points used. A character
may use up to their CON in energy points each phase without penalty; That is,
a character with a CON of 20 could use up to 100 Active Points each phase
without getting tired. Points in excess of that are lost from VIT.

There are no Automatic Recoveries, and the Extended Action penalty applies
at the end of the first phase.


Pushing:

Pushing STR, Movement, or a Power, costs more VIT
when the Endurance Rule is in effect.
Also, an EGO roll may be called for to Push at all.

Push by* * * * * costs
5 Active Pts* * * 1d6
10 Pts* * * * * * * * 2d6* ***
15 Pts* * * * * * * * 4d6
20 Pts* * * * * * * * 8d6

Recovery and Resting rules do not change.

New Limitation: Tiring (-1/2)

This Limitation applies if the Endurance Rules are not in effect
by default. Using a Tiring Power means the character gives up any
Automatic Recovery that phase, and the Endurance Rules are in
effect for the use of that Power only. At a -1 Limitation, the character
does not even get to use the Power for “Free” up to the level determined
by CON: every use costs points directly off of VIT.



Lucius Alexander

The palindromedary wonders if this is the End of END?

[IndianaJoe3]

Time to post my last thoughts on Characteristics.

Point costs for all Primary Characteristics are unchanged. Figured Characteristics change as follows:

REC is (STR/5)+(CON/5), and costs 1 CP for 1 point of REC.
END is 2*CON, and costs 1 CP for 10 points of END.
STUN is BODY+CON, and costs 1 CP for 1 point of STUN.

The default running is now 24m, and the default swimming is 8m. However, this is per turn, not per phase. See, “Movement Powers” for more details.

STR no longer adds to Leaping. Characters start with 2m leaping.

COM defaults to being, “universal” - a character with a high COM is considered to be attractive to everyone. COM that applies only to members of a particular species may be worth a Limitation, depending on how common that species is. Gamemasters who want a more realistic treatment may decide that COM only applies with in one's species. Negative COM no longer has any effect on PRE attacks. Finally, COM Rolls may often be made as Complementary Rolls to Interaction Skills. However, a failed roll may give a penalty as the target realizes you're trying to manipulate them.

[The Main Man]

My Final $.02 on Characteristics:

1) Please do not decouple Figured Characteristics.

As others have pointed out, doing the calculations are small pickings versus Power Construction.

Charts should be able to do the job.

As laid out in the beginning, ALL character types end up costing more; Bricks just get hosed more than the others.


2) Combat Value (whether Physical or Mental) should be consolidated with Skill Bonuses at a compromised value of CHAR/4.

This "CHAR Bonus" could be displayed without the Skill Base much like D&D already does.


3) STR should be decoupled from Leaping, PD, REC, and STUN.


4) CON could be combined with BODY to make Health (HLT) which functions as both.

HLT/5 = Base PD and ED

HLT/2.5 = REC

HLT x2 = END

HLT x2 = STUN

There should be more usage for CON Rolls.


5) BODY (assuming that it does not combine with CON) should replace STR in the Figured CHAR.

BODY/5 = Base PD

(CON/5) + (BODY/5) = Base REC

CON + BODY = Base STUN
or
BODYx2 = Base STUN
or
(CON/2) + (EGO/2) + BODY = Base STUN (see below)

6) INT should figure into SPD at (INT/10) + (DEX/10) but it thusly should cost 2CP per 1 point.


7) EGO should be able to double for CON against Stunning much like how it can double for PRE against PRE Attacks.

Similarly, it could figure into STUN at (CON/2) + (EGO/2) + BODY = Base STUN

This interestingly places two different "Mental" CHAR into the Figured CHAR.

This would mean, IOW, that Bricks would no longer have a monopoly on Figured CHAR and it would elevate EGO's value.

This all is equivalent to "mind over matter" as it also gives alternate routes to acquire Figured CHAR besides through Physical CHAR - IOW, Bricks would no longer be the only archetype that gets a cost break because a PC with sufficient mental CHAR could have just as suitable Figured CHAR as a Brick in the long run, which solves much of the "Bricks get a big cost break" problem that seems to have brought it all up in the first place.

8) COM should gain more mechanical utility (the expanded Social Interaction idea could make good use of it)

[Klaus Mogensen]

Time to post my last thoughts on Characteristics.

What's with all these "final thoughts"? Has Steve announced that the threads will close soon?

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

What's with all these "final thoughts"? Has Steve announced that the threads will close soon?

Steve has indicated he will close the forum threads when he begins work on 6e and starts to read them. There has been no exact timing announced.

[Hugh Neilson]

My Final $.02 on Characteristics:

1) Please do not decouple Figured Characteristics.

I agree on this. The formuli need to be adjusted, and costs modified, so that the benefits provided by characteristics price out independently at a cost similar to the characteristic. With this accomplished, there is no benefit removing figured characteristics. They could then easily be removed by repricing the characteristics as an optional rule.

2) Combat Value (whether Physical or Mental) should be consolidated with Skill Bonuses at a compromised value of CHAR/4.

Consistent with #1, above, CV (or OCV and DCV) should have an independent cost from the characteristic they are derived from. I see no reason that the skill bonus and the CV bonus should be consolidated.

Skill levels need to be priced in a manner that meets the criteria that characteristics are neither bargain priced nor overpriced compared to their component parts.

3) STR should be decoupled from Leaping, PD, REC, and STUN.

I've posted my suggested modification to the Figureds before and won't reiterate it here. I suspect Steve's eyes are already sore from all the reading.

4) CON could be combined with BODY to make Health (HLT) which functions as both.

There should be more usage for CON Rolls.

There is, to me, no compelling reason to consolidate these. CON and BOD do different things and should stay separate. More use for CON rolls would be nice.

5) BODY (assuming that it does not combine with CON) should replace STR in the Figured CHAR.

I've posted my suggested formuli. I suspect, if Steve is persuaded to retain figured's, he will have his own formuli in mind.

6) INT should figure into SPD at (INT/10) + (DEX/10) but it thusly should cost 2CP per 1 point.

I agree this is an idea worth at least considering.

7) EGO should be able to double for CON against Stunning much like how it can double for PRE against PRE Attacks.

I disagree. And PRE should no longer defend against PRE attacks. Each should have a single defense. We could use an average (Ego and PRE for PRE attacks; CON and Ego for stunning), but I don't see this as sufficiently valuable to merit the added steps.

8) COM should gain more mechanical utility (the expanded Social Interaction idea could make good use of it)

COM should have more mechanics and remain as a characteristic.

[Netzilla]

What's with all these "final thoughts"? Has Steve announced that the threads will close soon?

From Steve's Friday update on the front page of the Hero Games Website:

Fourth and most importantly, last Wednesday, almost seven years to the day that we released the 5E core rulebook, I at long last began work on the Sixth Edition! I’m currently assembling my “Master Fifth Edition Document,” from which I’ll create 6E through the judicious use of scalpel, machete, spackle, blowtorch, gila monster spit, and hacksaw. Once I have it ready, I’m going to start reading the posts on the 6E forum — and the first thing I’m going to do is lock all the threads. So if you want to post your comments, you’d better do it soon!

[James Gillen]

Awww.