Characteristics Issues

[Tasha]

or exchanged for DC at a 4:1 exchange rate

- Klaus

BTW exchanging DC 4-1 has the issue of making it far easier/Cheaper to take 8 skill levels and just call Headshots. at 2-1 there is an incentive to use those skill levels to increase the damage of an attack, instead of making a called shot monster.

Tasha

[Klaus Mogensen]

I'm not asserting the present system is superior, but that yours is not a marked improvement. Absent a marked improvement, I prefer "no change" to "change for the sake of change". But I'm old and don't want to learn new systems unless it comes with a solid beneft.

I don't think I'm advocating "change for the sake of change", but I think it is important to consider possible changes on their own merits without too much regard for history. Oh, and I'm older than you.

I don't find swimming strenuous when compared to running and leaping. YMMV.

"Mileage" is a very apt word in this connection.
I don't know about you, but personally I find swimming at a certain speed more strenuous than running/walking at the same speed. I can walk 5 km in an hour without being at all tired, but after swimming 5 km in an hour, I'm rather beat - and I'm a decent swimmer. I don't do much leaping now, but as a child, I enjoyed skipping along the road in leaps and bounds, and I found that more strenuous than merely running. But as you say, YMMV.

The higher your SPD, the better value you get from bonus leaping or, I assume, teleportation. Frog Man becomes the speedster archetype of choice.

Running leaps require a certain amount of running before you jump, and that should limit this for speedsters. Standing jumps are 1/10 the Running/turn at a certain value of MOVE, so you would need to be SPD 11 or 12 before you could leap faster than running. Also remember that superheroic jumps may take more than 1 segment, which means that it becomes a really bad idea for speedsters. I expect Superleaping would be bought as limited Flight: "Must touch ground at least once per Turn (per minute non-combat) or to change direction" (or some such).

Gliding will need revision or faster SPD = faster altitude loss with no gain in velocity.

I don't recall writing anything about Gliding. Why do you assume that faster characters would fall faster? That seems kind of silly,

This vast array of new characteristics also makes a character with a broad base of skills much more expensive, come to think of it.

Now, this is a real concern. Or perhaps not if we take a closer look. Let's see: I have increased the number of skill groups from 5 (Agility, Background, Combat, Intellect, Interaction) to 8 (with the addition of Manual, Perception, and Concentration). OTOH I have reduced the cost of broad skill groups from 5 to 3, so getting +1 in all skill groups will cost 8x3=24 instead of 5x5=25. Of course, such characters will probably buy Overall levels, which I've suggested cost 8 points.

If I know nothing about explosives, or have to work through the manual in my head, I will not be as good at demolitions as someone with that knowledge.

That's why Demolitions is a skill, and not an Everyman one. All skills represent knowledge and training, no matter which characteristic they are based on. If any skill based on knowledge automatically is a INT skill, all skills should be INT skills. Stealth is e.g. about knowing how to step silently, what surfaces to avoid, and how to stay in cover - clearly INT. Seduction is about knowing how to flatter or entice somebody into doing what you want - also clear INT. Etc., ad nauseam.

So now I need optional rules basing mental powers on something other than EGO to implement the "simplification" of removing EGO.

If Telepathy really is limited to "a single, rarely seen, never PC race", you don't need any rules for it.

I am arguing that the complexity of adjusting characteristic (and everything else) prices on a game by game basis is not worth it, so we live with the flat cost model.

Oh, I agree entirely. Which is why I'm not happy with solutions like:

What about a limitation for Ego that it "does not impact mental powers", and you simply apply that limitation universally in games with no mental powers.

Why come a lot closer when we can resolve the issue entirely?

I don't see it as an issue, but rather as a feature (though I know you don't agree). IMO, characteristics should give something you can't buy otherwise - why else have them?

- Klaus

[Klaus Mogensen]

BTW exchanging DC 4-1 has the issue of making it far easier/Cheaper to take 8 skill levels and just call Headshots. at 2-1 there is an incentive to use those skill levels to increase the damage of an attack, instead of making a called shot monster.

Very true. However, since my system has about twice the granularity as the current system, all penalties should also be about doubled.

The current 2-1 exchange rate is badly broken IMO. You can swap two 3-point levels (cost 6) for +1 DC, 0 END (cost 7½). You can even choose to use the levels for +2 OCV or DCV instead, whereas 1 DC at best can be spread for +1 OCV. This issue needs to be dealt with. If we retain the current CSL costs, the exchange should be 3-1. If we reduce costs so that you can swap 2-point levels for damage, it has to be 4-1, or else it is cheaper to buy damage as levels than as damage.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

I don't recall writing anything about Gliding. Why do you assume that faster characters would fall faster? That seems kind of silly,

I agree it sounds silly. However, each use of gliding for forward movement, by the books, requires loss of 1" altitude. Will this be varied to losing 4 meters altitude for each turn in which you use Gliding? If so, how do I determine that altitude half way through the turn (when I don't know whether the character will move more, in which case he should not be finished losing altitude, or won't, in which case he should have lost whatever altitude he will lose already)? I might just need to know my range modifier before the end of the turn, and the prospect of dealing woth Schrodinger's Glider does not appeal to me.

If Telepathy really is limited to "a single, rarely seen, never PC race", you don't need any rules for it.

Unless I want to objectively assess the success or failure of a member of that race using telepathy against a PC. And that would be the extreme end just before "there are no mental powers". Gradually, the frequency will increase to the "anyone without mental powers is considered cruelly handicapped" other extreme, and Ego will cost the same, or be absent entirely, at every point in between.

I don't see it as an issue, but rather as a feature (though I know you don't agree). IMO, characteristics should give something you can't buy otherwise - why else have them?

Why have skill levels, then? I can buy characteristics, damage classes, etc. to replace them. Stealth is unnecessary - I can buy Invisibility limited by a modified RSR which uses the opponent's skill roll. I don't need interaction skills - I can just use appropriately limited mental powers. Why have Running, Leaping, Swimming, Gliding, or Teleportation? We can just use Flights - Only on a Flat Surface; requires regular touchdowns and can't change direction in air; Only on/in Water; Restricted altitude gains and must lose altitude to advance; Does not cross intervening space.

Of course, we can ditch force field and armour, as they are easily simulated with defenses and damage resistance, and TK will be replaced with STR, at range, Indirect (we'll no longer have Figured's or we'd need No figured).

Why, we can slim this baby right down if we remove anything that can be done another way! And then we can add all the talents and power constructs to put them back again with other abilities, appropriately limited!

[Lucius]

Figured Characteristics are a great idea but they suffer from a poor execution right at the start of the Hero System.

I have to admit, dropping the concept of Figured Characteristics would be an improvement on what we have now. But I think it would be better to reform them than to simply abolish them, so I'm going to make my case for preserving something that has always been part of Hero.

Usually I try to argue from facts and logic, but in this case I think it comes down to aesthetics. (one of the reasons I put off even making a case for so long...) So bear in mind the implied "in my opinion."

I like the fact that changing one thing on a character sheet causes other things to change. I like knowing that if INT goes up by a certain amount, all the INT based skills go up. I like knowing that if DEX is Drained, Combat Value falls with it. I like, in the process of character creation, knowing that points expended in one place can mean a sacrifice somewhere else.

That's because I see the character as an organism, a dynamic living system whose parts interact with one another like the organs in a living body. A character should feel like it's breathing, like blood flows in its veins - even if it's a robot or lich or alien, that remains metaphorically true. I want it to feel alive in my mind.

Dropping Figured Characteristics is taking a step towards turning a character into a plastic model made up of parts that have no logical relationship to each other. Even the parts of a machine interact with one another rather than sitting in isolation. This is like saying a character is like a statue or mannequin, not a living thing or even a machine.

I think it's easier to breathe life into a character once play begins if it was developed as a dynamic "living" system rather than simply glued together out of otherwise unconnected parts.

I do understand the problems with Figured Characteristics as they are now. I just don't think it would be that hard to take a good idea that was executed wrong the first time, and do it right this time, so that someone who wants to sell many or even ALL secondary characteristics down can do so without creating balance problems.

Lucius Alexander


The palindromedary acknowledges that Lucius gave it his best shot, and wonders if it did any good.

[Doc Democracy]

Figured Characteristics are a great idea but they suffer from a poor execution right at the start of the Hero System.

See. I am an advocate of ditching characteristics completely as a mechanic in the system. I think that on one side they stretch and disrupt the costs of powers (STR being the main culprit here) and on the other they stretch and disrupt the skill system (DEX being the main culprit).

However, I understand the visceral need for characteristics - they are something that 'belong' in RPGs. I understand the commercial need for characteristics - they provide accessibility to the system for newbies and casual players.

I think that there should be a default set of characteristics - the advanced book - if this is the way things seem to be going (on these forums anyway) should provide a section on how to build your own characteristics. Some suggestions on what characteristics are necessary in particular genre situations, how to adjust costs such as STR etc and possibly how to play without specific characteristics.


Doc

[Klaus Mogensen]

I agree it sounds silly. However, each use of gliding for forward movement, by the books, requires loss of 1" altitude. Will this be varied to losing 4 meters altitude for each turn in which you use Gliding? If so, how do I determine that altitude half way through the turn (when I don't know whether the character will move more, in which case he should not be finished losing altitude, or won't, in which case he should have lost whatever altitude he will lose already)? I might just need to know my range modifier before the end of the turn, and the prospect of dealing woth Schrodinger's Glider does not appeal to me.

The simplest would be to let gliders drop 4m at the end of every turn, but it could also be prorated to 1m every 3 segments.

Why have skill levels, then? I can buy characteristics, damage classes, etc. to replace them.

(1): You can't buy characteristics to get +1 with a single skill or maneuver.
(2): CSLs are flexible - they can be used for OCV, DCV or DC
In short, you get things with SLs you can't get exactly like that otherwise. I think Characteristics and SLs complement each other very well that way, and I would like to see that remain.

Stealth is unnecessary - I can buy Invisibility limited by a modified RSR which uses the opponent's skill roll. I don't need interaction skills - I can just use appropriately limited mental powers.

This touches on a central issue with Hero: If Powers are available, some skills become really bad options. Why buy Climbing when you can buy Clinging or Flight cheaper? It seems to me that such skills are for campaigns where Powers aren't available.

Why have Running, Leaping, Swimming, Gliding, or Teleportation? We can just use Flights - Only on a Flat Surface; requires regular touchdowns and can't change direction in air; Only on/in Water; Restricted altitude gains and must lose altitude to advance; Does not cross intervening space.

Actually, if the MOVE characteristic is implemented, I think something like that should be how you buy supermovement.

Of course, we can ditch force field and armour, as they are easily simulated with defenses and damage resistance, and TK will be replaced with STR, at range, Indirect (we'll no longer have Figured's or we'd need No figured).

These are actually very good ideas.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

(1): You can't buy characteristics to get +1 with a single skill or maneuver.

Limitations.

(2): CSLs are flexible - they can be used for OCV, DCV or DC In short, you get things with SLs you can't get exactly like that otherwise. I think Characteristics and SLs complement each other very well that way, and I would like to see that remain.

Multipowers. +X OCV, +X DCV and +X DC, all Limited to "only with these maneuvers".

Actually, if the MOVE characteristic is implemented, I think something like that should be how you buy supermovement.

So make teleport, fly, glide, swim, leap, etc. all variants on MOVE, but we can't make Skill Levels a multipower of OCV, DCV and DC's? Not very consistent.

These are actually very good ideas.

They make for a nice theoretical model (perhaps one that should be behind the actual constructions and disclosed in the Advanced book), but a much more complex and non-intuitive character design system which creates or increases the barrier to entry for new players.

[Netzilla]

Benchmarks for human maximum strength

In Hero System, a STR 20 normal can by Pushing to STR 25 lift 800 kg off the ground and stagger a few steps with it. How does this compare to the real world?

Unfortunately, I could find no world records for staggering a few steps with massive weights. However, the world record for clean-and-jerk (where you lift a barbell overhead in three steps) is 263.5 kg, and the world record in benchpress is 488 kg. What we're looking for is probably somewhere in between these two, around 350-400 kg. So Hero is too generous at by at least a factor of two at human max. However, the human norm of 100 kg is probably not too far off.

Actually, I've always considered Hero's Max Lift to be roughly equivalent to a Deadlift. The current World Record for that, according to Wiki, is 490kg, however I've seen other sites report a record of 500kg. In current Hero System terms, that gives a STR of somewhere between 21 and 22.

[AnotherSkip]

Benchmarks for human maximum strength

In Hero System, a STR 20 normal can by Pushing to STR 25 lift 800 kg off the ground and stagger a few steps with it. How does this compare to the real world?

Unfortunately, I could find no world records for staggering a few steps with massive weights. However, the world record for clean-and-jerk (where you lift a barbell overhead in three steps) is 263.5 kg, and the world record in benchpress is 488 kg. What we're looking for is probably somewhere in between these two, around 350-400 kg.

there are other relevant competitions there is a IIRC some sort of "farmer Hauling" competion. the objective is to haul a collection of six stacked logs up a hill. ends up being about 500Lbs and time is a factor also.

[AnotherSkip]

This touches on a central issue with Hero: If Powers are available, some skills become really bad options. Why buy Climbing when you can buy Clinging or Flight cheaper? It seems to me that such skills are for campaigns where Powers aren't available- Klaus

Drain flight (Or Change environment with enough flight loss to make it impossible to fly) and suddenly you need to get a way down off the top of the skyscraper you barely managed to land on in time.....

[Steve Long]

Hey folx! It's time for me to start reading all the 6E threads, and that means I need to lock them.

Hopefully 15 months has been plenty of time for anyone who wanted to have a say, to have a say. So please, don't start up other threads to try to continue discussions, send me PMs with points you "just have to make," or anything like that. It's time for y'all to sit back, relax, have a frosty beverage, and let me get 6E written.

We definitely appreciate everyone's interest, participation, and ideas! I'm looking forward to reading the posts and seeing what nuggets of wisdom lurk therein. I have no doubt 6E is going to be even better than it would have been because of our fans' enthusiastic efforts at providing us with input and suggestions.