Characteristics Issues

[Doc Democracy]

Overall, I'm concluding the concept of a SIZ sounds interesting but the execution is impractical, making it ultinately more trouble than it's worth.

Well, I think that it highlights the problems with characteristics - they have to do something to be worth the space but if they do something then they skew costs of powers and skills. If they dont skew costs then why do you need them - you could replace them with powers or skills.

If we didn't have characteristics in the game then I think that Hugh's comment above would apply almost across the board...


Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Well, I think that it highlights the problems with characteristics - they have to do something to be worth the space but if they do something then they skew costs of powers and skills. If they dont skew costs then why do you need them - you could replace them with powers or skills.

If we didn't have characteristics in the game then I think that Hugh's comment above would apply almost across the board...

While there is something to be said for that logic, and while I believe the ultimate expression of "decoupling" would effectively rid the game of characteristics (perhaps replaced with EC's of "Strength Powers", or "Presence Powers"), I think the issue with SIZ goes further. It seems that most implications of SIZ duplicate existing abilities, rather than adding anything. As well, it seems impractical to incorporate everything that ought to be part of increased size into a reasonably priced characteristic. Finally, Shrinking is a power because, in most cases where it is used in the source material, it provides advantages greater than its drawbacks. That makes it tough to build a characteristic you sell back to shrink.

[Mini-Nukette]

I've spent quite a few hours scribbling ideas for SIZE and MASS.

The best I came up with I think is as follows, using simplified maths.

SIZE

The typical human is considered to be SIZE 10 with a height of SIZE²x2cm (163-200cm, about 5'4" to 6'7").

SIZE represents an approximate volume of space equal to its value squared in centimeters cubed. So SIZE 1 = 1cm³, SIZE 2 = 4cm³, SIZE 5 = 25cm³, SIZE 10 = 100cm³ (1m³), SIZE 20 = 4m³, SIZE 30=9m³, and so on.

Going in reverse, to calculate SIZE from a starting volume in cm³, first find the cubic root of the volume. The SIZE is the nearest square root of this.

Example: A steel girder 6m by 25cm by 25cm has a volume of 375,000cm³ (600x25x25). The cubic root of this is about 63. This results in the girder having a SIZE of 8.

The SIZE of a sphere isn't as difficult to calculate as you might first think. The SIZE of a sphere approximately about 0.81 x its diameter. (Note: If you want a precise calculation, the volume of a sphere is (π x diameter³)/6.)

As noted above, SIZE 10 = a 1m³ cube. A sphere with a diameter of 1 meter has a volume of about 81cm³ (100cm x 0.81), which would therefore be SIZE 9 (its volume being equal to a SIZE 9 cube of 81cm³). A true full SIZE 10 sphere which took up 1m³ of volume has a diameter of about 124cm.

For a couple of extreme examples for sphere SIZES :
1) The Moon is about 3,476km in diameter. 347,600,000 x 0.81 (using cm instead of km) gives 281,556,000, which translates to the Moon's SIZE.
2) The Earth is about 12,756km in diameter. 1,275,600,000 x 0.81 gives us the Earth's SIZE of 1,033,236,000.

MASS

Each point of MASS is equal to 10kg.

A humans base MASS is SIZE + ((STR+CON+BOD-30) / 3). So an average healthy human of SIZE 10 has a MASS of 10 + ((10+10+10-30) / 3) = 10, around 100kg.

There is also Effective Mass, which initially is equal to normal MASS. More on that later.

Examples

Jim buys the statistics for his new Brick hero, Gargo, of STR 60, CON 30, BODY 25. His SIZE and MASS each start at a base of 10. However his MASS is also increased by 1 per three points of STR, CON and BODY over 10.

So Gargo's base MASS would be 10 + (60+30+25-30)/3) = 38. His base weight is therefore 380kg. There is also an Effective MASS, which is equal initially to normal MASS. The two are recorded together, MASS(Effective MASS). So Jim notes down 38(38) as he plans out his character.

Jim is required to take levels for Gargo of Increased Size, which gives +1 SIZE and +1 MASS, to get Gargo to the required SIZE for his MASS, but each level also gives him half a point back.

Jim works out the necessary levels in Increased Size (which for 1pt gives +1 SIZE, +1 MASS) he needs to get Gargo to a SIZE which would come closest to 38+(1 per Increased Size) MASS for an average human build, which is considered to be SIZE²/10.
At the point of SIZE 22 comes closest with a typical build MASS of 48, as Gargo has gained 12 MASS also from the Increased Size at this stage, bringing Jim's character up to MASS 50(50) or 500kg in weight.
(Size 23 would give Gargo 51 MASS, which is under SIZE 22's typical human build MASS of 53 (23²/10), so Jim cannot purchase that level.)

So he gains 6 points to spend after increasing Gargo's SIZE to 22.

As stated in SIZE above, the average human height is considered to be SIZE²x2cm. This would mean Gargo would be around 968cm(31'9") tall and took up an area of about nine 1m hexes across on a map though! On the plus side, Gargo would have a reach of 10m (see later.)

Jim really wants Gargo to be closer to normal human SIZE and MASS, so he considers the noted Natural, Unnatural and Supernatural Fitness powers.

First, he could purchase some levels of Natural Fitness, at 1 point/level, each of which would reduce his SIZE by 1 per two levels and MASS(Effective MASS) by 2(2) per level, which can reduce him to a minimum SIZE of 8 and a MASS(Effective MASS) of 4(4) + 1(1) per level of Increased Size.

Then, he could purchase some levels of Unnatural Fitness to compensate, reducing his SIZE by 1 or MASS(Effective MASS)by 3(1) per 2 point spents, reducing to a minimum of SIZE of 8, and MASS(EMASS) of 1(1) per level of Increased Size.

He could then purchase Supernatural Fitness to reduces MASS by 1 and gain 1 EMASS per level, at the cost of 3 points each, to a minimum of MASS of 5 and a maximum of base EMASS +1 per level of Increased Size (in Gargo's case 38+1/level of Increased Size.)

Or he could purchase a combination of the above.

Lets look at some of Jim's options.

He could reduce Gargo's SIZE as far as 8 with Natural Fitness, and MASS(EMASS) down to a minimum of 16(16) (Natural Fitnesses limit of 4 +12 levels of Increased Size). That would cost up 28 points for -14 SIZE to 8 which would also reduce Gargo's MASS(EMass) by 28(28), to 22(22).

He can reduce Gargo's SIZE as far down as 7 and his MASS to 12(12) with Unnatural Fitness. That would cost up to 30 points, for -15 SIZE, and 19 points for -38(-19) MASS. As Effective MASS provides a benefit, lowering it further would be a waste of points.

He could reduce Gargo's MASS to a minimum of 5 via Supernatural Fitness powers by spending 90 points, but Gargo would still have an Effective MASS of 50 for beneficial character calculations (MASS 5(50)). However 90 points is very expensive, and Gargo also would still be over 30' tall.

Jim to try a combination of the above. He decides to aim for being around 8 feet tall and around 200kg in weight, which would be okay for his mental image of Gargo. That would be SIZE 12, and MASS 20.

Natural Fitness would cost 20 points for -10 SIZE and -40(40) MASS. That would put Gargo at SIZE 12 and MASS of 10(10). Not bad, Gargo would be back to 100kg and 8 foot tall. Jim wants to retain some of that beneficial Effective MASS though if he can stretch his points, so he spends 10 points for -5 SIZE and -20(20) MASS instead, bringing Gargo to SIZE 17 and MASS 30(30).

He spends another 5 points on Unnatural Fitness, concentrating on reducing Gargo's SIZE to 12. Jim could spend another 5 points here for -10(-5) MASS(EMASS) to bring Gargo to 20(25).

However he decides that 15 points on Supernatural Fitness which would reduce Gargo's MASS by 5, and give back 5 EMASS, to a MASS of 25(35). Jim thinks he can live with Gargo weighing 250kg, and has spent enough here already.

So in all, Jim has spent 24 points (10+5+15, less the 6 he gained from Increased Size), and Gargo has SIZE 12 and MASS 25(35), and a Reach of 3m. Ah yes, Reach. Thats the next topic.

REACH

The average human has a Reach equal to their SIZE² cm rounded to the nearest meter. SIZE 8, under or equal 128cm(4'2") tall, therefore has a Reach of 1m. SIZE 9, 10 and 11 have a Reach of 2m (162cm, 200cm, and 242cm for those sizes respectively.) At SIZE 12 and 13, Reach is 3m (288cm and 392cm respectively.)

Effective MASS

Effective MASS is just that, the extent of MASS that a character, creature, robot or whatever can put into its physical exertions, combined with his, her or its STR.

The average human is considered to have 10% of his or her MASS in the head, 50% in the torso, 5% in each arm and 15% in each leg.

This can be further divided. 25% of the head MASS is in the neck. 45% of the torso MASS is in the thorax (upper body), 30% in the lumbar (lower body), and 25% in the pelvis (hips and groin). 55% of each arm's MASS is in the upper arm, 35% in the forearm, and 10% in the hand. 60% of each legs MASS is in the thigh, 30% in the shank, and 10% in the foot.

Effective MASS however is divided differently, based on muscle proportions. 2% in the head, 30% in the torso (15% thorax, 10% lumbar, 5% pelvis), 20% in each arm (10% upper, 7% forearm, 3% hand), and 24% in each leg (12% thigh, 10% shank, 2% foot).

You can apply up to (STR+EMASS)² / (square root of SIZE to one decimal place) of force in an action. Depending on the physical exercise though, different muscles come into play.

Lets take Jim's character Gargo and an average human called Tony as examples. Gargo has STR 60 SIZE 12 MASS of 25(35). Therefore Gargo can apply no more than 2,654g of force in any action ((60+35)² / 3.4 (the square root of 12)). Tony, an average human, on the other hand can apply no more than a base of 125kg ((10+10)² / 3.2 (square root of 10). However that is only if either Gargo or Tony can use all their muscles in the task at hand, more often than not impossible.

A standard punch might use the arm muscles and the hips to help drive the blow. So you would apply 25% of EMASS (20% for the arm and 5% for the pelvis.) Gargo could therefore punch with a force up to 25% of his base 2654kg of force, which is 664kg - nearly 2 thirds of a metric ton of impact. Tony would punch with a force up to 31kg. Therefore, we can tell that Gargo can throw a normal punch more than 21 times as strong as Tony's.

You could apply up to 65% of EMASS to lifting an object (40% for both arms, and 25% for thorax/lumbar.) So Gargo can lift up to 1,725kg, and Tony can lift up to 81kg.

Throwing an object in one hand could be about the same as a punch. Gargo could thereforce apply up to 664kg of force divided between lifting and throwing. So he could throw 500kg, with 164kg of force turned into his throwing speed.

***

Thats what I have come up with so far. Obviously some of it needs fleshing out, and I'm not familiar with the HERO system so the STR to lifting mechanics etc. are probably far out, but I hope this gives a good gist of what I'm thinking and might be of use or further consideration.

[Chris Goodwin]

SIZE represents an approximate volume of space equal to its value squared in centimeters cubed. So SIZE 1 = 1cm³, SIZE 2 = 4cm³, SIZE 5 = 25cm³, SIZE 10 = 100cm³ (1m³), SIZE 20 = 4m³, SIZE 30=9m³, and so on.

You may want to make sure of your notation and your units. cm³ is "cubic centimeters"; 100 of them is a tenth of a liter. One cubic meter is 1,000,000 cubic centimeters, or 1000 liters (of water that's one tonne).

[Klaus Mogensen]

SIZE

The typical human is considered to be SIZE 10 with a height of SIZE²x2cm (163-200cm, about 5'4" to 6'7").

SIZE represents an approximate volume of space equal to its value squared in centimeters cubed. So SIZE 1 = 1cm³, SIZE 2 = 4cm³, SIZE 5 = 25cm³, SIZE 10 = 100cm³ (1m³), SIZE 20 = 4m³, SIZE 30=9m³, and so on.

100cm³ is not 1m³, it is 0.0001m³. 100cm³ of flesh weighs approximately 0.1kg. 1m³ of flesh weighs approximately 1000kg.

A steel girder 6m by 25cm by 25cm has a volume of 375,000cm³ (600x25x25). The cubic root of this is about 63. This results in the girder having a SIZE of 8.

The cubic root of 375,000 is actually 72.11.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Klaus Mogensen]

I have been giving a lot of thought to what would constitute a good set of primary characteristics. Here's my proposal:

Hero 6th should IMO have nine primary characteristics, all of which would have a cost of 1 point per +1 (with no adds to figured characteristics). The nine characteristics fall in three groups of three characteristics each:

• Brawn Characteristics: STR, CON, BODY
• Deftness Characteristics: DEX, AGI, PER
• Mind Characteristics: INT, EGO, PRE

Besides being an aesthetic grouping, this allows minor characters to be described by just three supercharacteristics: Brawn, Deftness, Mind.

STR: HTH damage, lift, throw, Grab hold/escape, brace against KB
CON: Stun threshold, CON rolls
BODY: Wound points
DEX: Skills and rolls governed by manual dexterity, HTH attack bonus
AGI: Skills and rolls governed by full-body suppleness, DCV
PER: Skills and rolls governed by sensory acuity, Ranged attack bonus, initiative
INT: Skills and rolls governed by intellect and memory
EGO: Skills and rolls governed by willpower and concentration, EGO DCV
PRE: Skills and rolls governed by charm or personal presence, PRE attack/defense

Note that DEX has been split into three stats, one of which (PER) also has been given something formerly a part of INT, namely perception. I think that splitting combat bonuses between three characteristics allows for greater specialization and allows for character concepts that were hard to do before (e.g. the fat cripple who's an excellent marksman, driver and locksmith). I also think it makes perfect sense to base ranged combat on PER - there's a reason why sharpshooters are called 'Hawkeye' rather than 'Supplefinger'. Initiative has also been moved here, since I feel it is about being able to quickly oversee a situation.

Also note that there now are six characteristics from which skills are derived. I have long thought that just three skill characteristics were a tad low, given the detail in other parts of the Hero System. PER skills could e.g. be Disguise, Lip Reading, Mimicry, Saghadowing and Ventriloquism. EGO skills could e.g. be Animal Handler, Demolitions, Survival, and other skills that used to be General skills back in 4th Edition.

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Mini-Nukette]

k, thats errata

I didn't leave in my note that the 'average human' is considered to occupy a SIZE 10 space of 1³m, or a 1m hex on a game map, with enough 'free room' to move unrestrained.

The Steel girder was 4m x 25cm x 25cm in my initial draft (which is about 63³cm), which would have made it at the extreme edge of SIZE 7 (SIZE 8 being 64³cm upwards).

My notation is indeed incorrect, I should have used :

"SIZE represents an approximate volume of space equal to its value squared in cubic centimeters. So SIZE 1 = 1³cm, SIZE 2 = 4³cm, SIZE 5 = 25³cm, SIZE 10 = 100³cm (1³m), SIZE 20 = 4³m, SIZE 30=9³m, and so on"

That does alter the scaling of my later mechanics 'quite' drastically. My mathematics have gotten rather fuzzy.

[Mini-Nukette]

The steel girder was 4m x 25cm x 25cm in my initial draft, which worked out to 63cm³, so that was an errata slip.

I also left out my note that the 'average human' occupies a SIZE 10 space, or a 1m hex on a game map, not that they actually fill a SIZE 10 cube (which I was basing on 1000kg of pure water.)

I have a 'density table' sketched out, so that you could say that the 6m x 25cm x 25cm steel girder weighs in at 3 metric ton (Steel weighing about 8000kg per cubic meter.)

A couple of errors I noticed myself afterward: Gargo at SIZE 22 would occupy an area of about 5 x1m hexes across (one centre hex and the hexes up to 2 distant from that) and his reach would be 5m, based on SIZE squared divided by 10, (for Gargo, 484/10 rounded up.) I had used double this value, from his height, instead.

[megaplayboy]

Comeliness should be explicitly mentioned as an alternative characteristic to base Seduction on(i.e., the player may use the higher of the two stats as the basis of the roll). In the event there are PRE attacks with the intent to use appearance to impress or fascinate the target, +1d6 per 5 COM over 10 actually makes some sense(would the most physically attractive human being in the world(COM 30) really only get to add 2 dice when trying to beguile another human being?)--or perhaps one could simply substitute COM for PRE entirely in some circumstances. Finally, obviously, certain PSs such as Model, Exotic Dancer, Lead Actor/Actress(romantic), and certain types of con artistry could all be based on COM-based skill rolls.

[CTaylor]

I can't figure out for the life of me how spending points on a talent to look good is better than spending points on a characteristic for Comeliness. What's gained here, exactly, other than reversing over 25 years of Hero rules?

[ajackson]

I can't figure out for the life of me how spending points on a talent to look good is better than spending points on a characteristic for Comeliness. What's gained here, exactly, other than reversing over 25 years of Hero rules?

The point is that the talent would have actual rules mechanics for what it does, and allow for a convenient setup of 'Attractive to nearly everyone' vs 'Attractive to humans' vs 'Attractive to Denebian tree-slugs', with different costs based on frequency.

[nexus]

The point is that the talent would have actual rules mechanics for what it does, and allow for a convenient setup of 'Attractive to nearly everyone' vs 'Attractive to humans' vs 'Attractive to Denebian tree-slugs', with different costs based on frequency.

There are rules for how Comeliness works already. They are under the description of the attribute and are pretty much the same as any other default characteristic roll. Com is rolled as complimentary to Interaction skills when the GM feels it's appropriate that character physical appearance might effect the skill. Comeliness defaults to human standards (like pretty much anything else in Hero) but there is nothing that stops a player from getting Com with limitation if the campaign is more "realistic."*; if the campaign is as such that being attractive to Denebian tree slugs will be important that will determine the value (if any) of the limitation. The same would apply if you wanted to Com (only to people that like Goths, blondes, or whatever) though personally I haven't felt the need to go into that degree of detail. And as Megaplayboy mentioned there can be skills based on Comeliness. They're just currently aren't any "official" ones.

[steamteck]

The point is that the talent would have actual rules mechanics for what it does, and allow for a convenient setup of 'Attractive to nearly everyone' vs 'Attractive to humans' vs 'Attractive to Denebian tree-slugs', with different costs based on frequency.

you could have rules and limitations just fine with COM without vanillaing it out by making it a perk. The perk version such as GURPs has just seems so bland to me as opposed to the characteristic which has a number I can grasp onto.

[James Gillen]

you could have rules and limitations just fine with COM without vanillaing it out by making it a perk. The perk version such as GURPs has just seems so bland to me as opposed to the characteristic which has a number I can grasp onto.

Like I said, split the difference and give COM an actual game effect.

JG

[Heimdallsgothi]

The only characteristic rule id prefer to see change is negative stats
-25str etc