General Rules Issues

[ajackson]

The problem with EGO is that if you balance its cost based on mental combat, it will be much too expensive in campaigns that don't have mental powers, and if you balance its cost based on no-mental-powers campaigns, it will be much too cheap in campaigns that do have mental powers. The only way to resolve this is to make it about nothing but mental powers and ignore it in campaigns that don't have any.

Nope, there's another way. Don't have it affect ECV and make it cheap.

[Hugh Neilson]

5d6 only has 29% greater variation than 3d6. As you add dice, you get a tighter bell curve. 2d6+(d6x3) has about twice the variation of 3d6. The same is true for 2d5+20, which doesn't require multiplication, but isn't "d6 pure".

This assumes we want to increase the role of random chance in determining success or failure.

[Greywind]

Switch to a straight D30 system.

All rolls are based off of 3D30...

[Klaus Mogensen]

This assumes we want to increase the role of random chance in determining success or failure.

I did two things in my suggestion: Changed 3d6 to a roll with about twice the variation, and changed skills from CHA/5 to CHA/2½. These two things cancel out in respect to randomness; we just get finer granularity (something Steve has asked for).

Combat will be somewhat more random, since we have changed CV from DEX/3 to DEX/2½ while doubling the variation in rolls.

- Klaus

[Markdoc]

Seriously? Any system that requires adding up one set of dice, modifying by CV (or skill) and levels and then adding up another set of dice and then subtracting that total from the first?

It has about as much chance of being adopted as getting the players to pull their own teeth and using them as wagers in skill vs skill contests.

The stated goal of 6E is to simplify game play, not complicate it.

cheers, Mark

[Eodin]

Since my thoughts are more general and apply across groups of power, I'll post here.

I would like to see various powers modularized. Since HERO is a toolkit, apply that to the powers.

Armor, Force Field, Force Wall, Mental Defense, Power Defense, Flash Defense -- all would become Defense. The modular parts would make various things easier to build. Armor is Defense, Zero END, Persistent. FF is Defense. Mental Defense is Defense, with the type being Mental. Force Wall is Defense, with a Barrier advantage - no damage gets through unless brought down. And so forth.

Aid, Succor, Drain, Transfer -- all would become Alteration. Succor would add points and cost END, Aid would be Succor with a Boost/Return Rate advantage, Drain would be Negative/Reduction and Usable As Attack, Transfer would be both Drain and Aid combined, and you could add in a mod to Rearrange points such as move 3d6 points from Running to Armor/Defense.

While I would like to see Energy Blast and the 2 Killing Attacks rolled together as Damaging Attack, I'm not sure how you'd have a mod to distinguish between Normal Dice and Killing Dice. But having the uniform mods for Ranged, Does/Doesn't Add STR damage, etc. work the same across all of them would be good.

Healing and Regeneration need a simplification, it's just too hard to build Regeneration of the non-superhero type.

Need a way to have a "pain" power, similar to the "Stun" power. It's possible to be in great pain and yet take no stun or body. You can have pinched nerves where moving is very painful (and so you don't move very fast) but no STUN or BODY damage is involved, and if you WANT to move fast you can, it's just very painful, something along the lines of an EGO Roll to continue moving rather than an Entangle that can be broken.
And for those who, like me, have had the wind knocked out of them, it's possible to be fully conscious and be unable to physically react to anything a longer period of time than "1 phase".

If HERO keeps the 12-second Turn, I also want to have movement based on the Turn (although Teleport would be tricky since it is by definition instantaneous unless Extra Time limits are added to it). Having combat speeds of 2 and 4 should not mean running twice as far in a 12-second time period or flying twice as far or swimming... you get the idea.
Also, a vehicle's SPD should match that of the driver if the driver is actually controlling it, so another reason for inches-per-turn speed.

I would like to see a more elegant way to do Usable On Others, similar to Aid or Succor. It shouldn't take 12 advantages just to make sure that your spell of Wind Protection won't fade from fair damsel Nell just because you walked down to the castle to visit with your friendly alchemist.

I'd like to see an elegant/modular way of handling shapeshifters/multiforms. There should be a "common" bit that persists across all forms, and a "form" bit that is specific to a particular form. It's a huge pain to make sure that my wizard's skills are maintained correctly across all forms as he gains experience and applies it to various skills.

On a side note I had a wierd dream, Steve had created a version of HERO that was linear instead of logarithmic. Normals had stats in 100 to 200 range, and supers had thousands of points. Of course dice was a problem, so it was "recommended" to use a dice rolling program to avoid rolling 50 dice for various attacks. Oh well.

[The Main Man]

1. I had a similar idea as yours in regards to Defense, whereas I was thinking of it for Hero Designer interficial streamlining.

Now that I think of it, Force Field already has that interface so basically, Defense should be modeled after Force Field in that respect.

2. I believe that Force Wall should be allowed to buy BODY.

It's rather difficult to simulate that whole, "Our shields are at 60% Captain!" thing, plus they are so all or nothing yet one can make a Barrier out of Entangle and there's no fuss.

3. I'm thinking that Hexes/Turn could work out if the Acceleration/Deceleration Rules were more strongly emphasized, but I do agree that it makes more sense.

4. Good call on Multiform.

That has sometimes annoyed me to no end.

Maybe Multiform could work something like a Power Framework?

5. I believe that your dream is some high octane nightmare fuel for HERO gamers.

[Klaus Mogensen]

The consolidated system I presented yesterday has as a feature that Characteristic Bonuses are CHA/2½. This has made me consider some rather far-reaching streamlining.

(1): What if we divided Primary Characteristics by 2½?
Then the Bonuses above would just be the Characteristic itself, and every point in a Characteristic would always count (no 'breakpoints').

(2): What if we also divided all costs by 2½?
This doesn't necessarily follow from (1), but I thought I would grab the idea and run with it. After all, a lot of costs in Hero are multiples of 5. It will reduce granularity somewhat in some places, but it will give us easier numbers to play with. It is sort of the opposite of the suggestion some have made that we should double all costs to prevent half-point costs. If you were against that suggestion, you ought to support this one.

(3): What if END is dropped? As a default, you can use Powers at no cost. Pushing costs STUN.

Anyway, here goes:


Basic Ability Roll: 2d6+d20
Combat Roll: Roll+OCV >= 15+DCV to hit (65% for OCV = DCV).
Opposed Skill Roll: Roll+Skill >= 18+Skill to succeed (50% for equal Skills).
Basic Skill Roll: Roll+Skill >= Difficulty to succeed. Base Difficulty (simple task) is 20.


Skill Levels
3 points: Overall Level
2 points: All Combat
1 point: +1 on three related skills/maneuvers or +2 on a single skill/maneuver
Three combat levels can be traded for +1 DC damage (this includes the 1-point levels that give +2 on a single maneuver; i.e., you would trade +6 OCV for +1 DC)


Primary Characteristics
All Primary Characteristics cost 2 per +1
Base 4, NCM 8

STR
Damage = STR x ½d6
Lifting ability doubles for every +2 STR
Revised Knockback: If attack BODY > target STR (+4 if Bracing), target is knocked back/down. Killing BODY counts half.
Realistic KB option: knockdown if BODY>STR
Heroic KB option: knockback = BODY-STR meters
Superheroic KB option: knockdown = 1m, 2m, 4m, 8m, etc. for BODY-STR = 1, 2, 3, 4, etc.

CON
Used for recovery of STUN and BODY (~ REC)
Is subtracted from STUN damage (Stun Defense)
Stunning threshold = CONx2
Realistic STUN Recovery: CON every hour
Heroic STUN Recovery: CON every 5 minutes
Superheroic STUN Recovery: CON every Turn and with Recovery actions

MOVE
Initiative
Running/turn = MOVE x 5m
Swimming/turn = MOVE x 2m
Standing broad jump = MOVE x 1m
Running broad jump = MOVE x 2m

DEX
Base for OCV and Manual Skills

AGI
Base for DCV and Athletic Skills

INT (or WITS)
Base for Intellect Skills and Perception Roll (or Skills)

PRE (or SPIRIT)
PRE Attack = PRE x ½d6
PRE Resistance Treshold = PREx2
Base for Social Skills and Willpower Rolls


Optional Characterictics
All Optional Characteristics cost 1 per +1
Base 4, NCM 8

EGO (used in campaigns where mental powers are common)
Base for ECV
Subtracted from mental damage/effects (Mental Defense)
Mental Resistance Treshold = EGOx2

Other possible Optional Characteristics: COM, STATUS, MAGIC


Secondary Characteristics

SPD Cost 4, base 2, NCM 4
Number of phases per Turn

Toughness (TGH) Cost 1, base 2, NCM 4
Subtracted from BODY damage (Body Defense)
Is half value against Killing Attacks (Normal Attacks with +1/4 advantage).
Note: Armor (cost 2) gives DEF, which subtracts from both STUN and BODY damage and isn't halved

BODY Cost ½, base 10, NCM 20
Tolerance for BODY damage

STUN Cost ½, base 20, NCM 50
Tolerance for STUN damage
May be spent to Push powers
Long-term exertion may cause loss of STUN


- Klaus

[Doc Democracy]

This was something I was thinking about because of the pain ray thread on the rules forum.

If an attack has an effect that does not immediately cause damage but will do so if the victim voluntarily remains within the field of effect then it causes all kinds of twists in the game.

In the pain ray a microwave ray causes the water to heat up under the skin and cause pain, that is used to disperse crowds as they run away before any real damage is caused.

But what if someone remained there, it would begin to cause STUN and possibly BODY. Ultimately it might even cause blindness as eyeballs cooked.

To me this sounds like the kind of thing cause by the disad susceptibility etc where prolonged exposure causes increasing damage.

I would like to see that mechanic made available to powers where prolonged exposure has effects very different from the instant power effects. Late in the day to be bringing something new to the table but it does indicate that HERO has lots of mechanics (like this and drowning) that are not made available to build powers that rely on the same type of effect.

Something for Steve to consider?


Doc

[AnotherSkip]

Need a way to have a "pain" power, similar to the "Stun" power. It's possible to be in great pain and yet take no stun or body. You can have pinched nerves where moving is very painful (and so you don't move very fast) but no STUN or BODY damage is involved, and if you WANT to move fast you can, it's just very painful, something along the lines of an EGO Roll to continue moving rather than an Entangle that can be broken.
And for those who, like me, have had the wind knocked out of them, it's possible to be fully conscious and be unable to physically react to anything a longer period of time than "1 phase".

Painful Touch: Change Environment 1 hex, -4 to Ego Rolls(14) If character fails his Ego Roll he cannot Move for the duration of Uncontrolled, Selective (+1/4), Uncontrolled (1 phase for every 1 the Ego Roll is missed by Character may reroll attempt on subsequent action phases, +1/2) No range (touch,-1/2),

I'll Knock YOU: Change Environment 1 hex, -4 to Ego Rolls(14), If character fails his Ego Roll he cannot act for the duration of Uncontrolled, Selective (+1/4), Uncontrolled (1 phase for every 1 the Ego Roll is missed by, +1/2) , No range (touch,-1/2) Linked to Strength attack(-1/2)

[PhilFleischmann]

Ability Roll: 2d6 + d6x3
In other words, roll three dice where one is a different color or size. Multiply this die by 3 before adding. See graph for distribution.

Alternative: 2d6+d20
This has the same average and a very similar distribution (see graph).
The advantage is that it doesn't involve multiplication; the disadvantage is that it isn't "d6 pure".

Roll-high combat option: Roll+OCV >= 15+DCV to hit
Roll-low combat option: Roll <= 20+OCV-DCV to hit
Hit chance with OCV=DCV is 66.7% (65% with 2d6+d20) compared to 62.5% now.

I think that's too high a chance. IIRC, the original reason 11- was chosen as the chance to hit someone of equal CV was that it was just one point higher than the 50% mark. (I've sometimes felt that even 62.5% was too high). with your ideas, the "base" roll for success should also be one above the 50% mark, with would be 18-.

The method I had suggested many pages ago, while also not "d6 pure" was 3d12 - which also gives twice the variation with a bell curve of exactly the same overall shape, only bigger. And it results in nice easy base "to-hit" numbers: 20- becomes the base roll (hitting someone with equal CV, or a base Skill Roll, or a -1 Activation, etc.) 15- becomes the Familiarity level (equivalent to the current 8- on 3d6), and also works for the -2 Activation roll. And 25- becomes the equivalent of the current 14- on 3d6, as per a -1/2 Activation.

15, 20, 25. What could be easier? And you only ever need three 12-siders. Save your bricks of d6's for damage rolls.

"d6-pure" is a foolish constancy that we can do away with if we have sufficient reason. There's no reason to make a big deal out of it.

[The Main Man]

I think that the Advanced Player's Guide would be an excellent place to introduce alternative dice.

This way, core HERO can remain d6-based, but players who want to use more of their dice can have a guide for how to do so.

For example, if one converts the damage classes of any given attack, they begin to resemble D&D weapon stats - an important distinction for player conversion.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Ability Roll: 2d6 + d6x3
Alternative: 2d6+d20

Roll-high combat option: Roll+OCV >= 15+DCV to hit
Roll-low combat option: Roll <= 20+OCV-DCV to hit
Hit chance with OCV=DCV is 66.7% (65% with 2d6+d20) compared to 62.5% now.

I think that's too high a chance. IIRC, the original reason 11- was chosen as the chance to hit someone of equal CV was that it was just one point higher than the 50% mark. (I've sometimes felt that even 62.5% was too high). with your ideas, the "base" roll for success should also be one above the 50% mark, with would be 18-.

With 2d6+(d6x3), 18- is 55.6% and 19- is 61.1%
With 2d6d20, 18- is 55% and 19- is 60%

The method I had suggested many pages ago, while also not "d6 pure" was 3d12 - which also gives twice the variation with a bell curve of exactly the same overall shape, only bigger.

I also like this, in spite of its "impurity".

It can be added as a third alternative to my overall suggestion.

- Klaus

[AnotherSkip]

As odd as this sounds i would suggest some notes on how to build villians that encourage mano a mano combat, say....
12 All But one I: +5 DCV Vs all, Not Vs (PC X, -1)
12 All But one II: +6RPD/+6Red Combat Luck, Not Vs (PC X, -1)

the rationalization being that he has tricks that others haven't dealt with before but that one hero knows them well enough that they should be the individual who should battle them.

[Hugh Neilson]

I think that the Advanced Player's Guide would be an excellent place to introduce alternative dice.

This way, core HERO can remain d6-based, but players who want to use more of their dice can have a guide for how to do so.

For example, if one converts the damage classes of any given attack, they begin to resemble D&D weapon stats - an important distinction for player conversion.

I like the idea of putting rules for other dice into the APG.