General Rules Issues

[BobGreenwade]

Q: Should we change the type of dice used?

Steve’s Thoughts: I don’t see any good reason to. I suppose if I wanted to change the way dice are rolled, changing the type might make sense.

I'm with you here 100%. A passing mention about using alternative dice, and how the idea could be implemented, might be worthwhile in an appendix, but the default should remain d6.

Q: Should we change the way dice are rolled?

I'm kind of the reverse from your position here, but not strongly so. Rolling high for success is a staple of other RPG systems; but on the other hand, rolling low for success and high for damage kind of makes "cheating dice" less attractive.

On the other hand I feel fairly comfortable with the bell curve as it is. That said, I think you could solve a host of issues by switching to 5d6, and narrowing the gaps for Skill rolls to, say, 14 + CHA/3, or 12 + CHA/2. That would give greater granularity to Skill Rolls and the usefulness of Characteristics, and possibly give different ways of dividing up the Characteristics so they have more variety.

Q: Should we get rid of the hex/inch as a unit of measurement?

It's not quite true that "there's absolutely no reason to keep the hex." The 2m hex is instantly usable for standup miniatures, whether metal or cardboard. I'm not saying don't do it, but just consider that consequence if you do, and provide a good solution to miniatures users.

Q: Should we change to Imperial measurements?

I agree with you on this one.

Q: Should we change the rules for rounding?

Not as a blanket statement. As I mentioned with Characteristics, it may be useful to have some things always round down (like all Figured Characteristics calculations and the "Spell Slot" issue I mention there), but on the whole keep it as is.

Q: Should we eliminate the distinction between Active Points and Real Points?

I think, as you do, that this would cause more trouble than it's worth.

Q: Should we redefine the HERO System to allow for “absolutes”?

Despite the history to the contrary, I'd make an allowance for it. Perhaps the cost for Invulnerability (100% Damage Reduction), Absolute Hitting, and so forth could be tied to the campaign level, and certainly these should be "Stop Sign" abilities, but there's enough call for it (IMO) that it should be included.

Q: Should some version of the “Hero Points” rules from Pulp Hero be included in the core rules?

I'd want it. It contributes a lot, potentially applies to any genre, and could be included in "watered-down" form for the core book.

Q: Should the Superheroic concept of “you have to pay for everything” be explained in greater detail?

I'm pretty close to where you are on this, but I'd also allow for some kind of Cost Multiplier based on commonality, usefulness, and other factors. And some things, like wristwatches and cell phones, could be thought of as "Everyman Equipment."

[Steve Long]

Steve, if you got rid of the hex, what would Hero Games' emblem be?

Still the hex. It's a d6 looked at angle-on.

[Steve Long]

OK, reading the replies, I think the question is misinterpreted. I don't think Steve is saying "burn your hex maps". I think the question is "should we have a base unit of measure which does not require translation". The present unit is 1" = 1 hex = 2 meters. The proposal is to change the base to 1 meter. If you want to use hex maps, square maps, rulers, tape measures, calipers, string with knots in it or whatever to measure, fine.

Yes, exactly so. How maps are marked or laid out is irrelevant. The issue here is whether the HERO System should use its own unique unit of measurement, and I think the answer is, "No."

[Nightshade]

I have long wanted to use 3d8 or 3d12 for HERO if for no other reason as to make there be a more available range of skills. You have to admit, there isn't a lot of room for bonuses or penalties for skill rolls, attack rolls, etc. with the bell curve quite so sharp. When 11- is about 50% success and 14- is over 75%, +3 becomes a huge factor, and it is only +3!

If you go to 3-36 (3d12) you keep the nice features of a bell curve, but eliminate the "I keep rolling the same number" effect from having too many dice, as well as keeping the gross randomness of a single die roll at bay. With 3d12, the "average" roll is 20-, but you can go +/- 16 instead of 11 +/- 8. You get a lot more room for modifiers that way.

In addition, 3d12 would allow you get more granularity with regard to your statistic rolls. No more would every character have a bunch of 13s and 18s in heroic games. We could use something like 10+statistic or 15+statistic/2, so there is an actual difference between someone who has an INT of 12 and 13. To me, this kills two birds with one stone.

I also agree that STR needs to be increased in cost, but I would say that regardless of genre. Either that, or make STR not affect as many figured statistics (if any at all). One thing I would suggest is making jumping a movement ability with a set starting point, like swimming or running. While you do tend to see strong people jumping further in comic books, it really doesn't make a lot of sense that it is the ONLY figured movement type.

Thanks for listening (errr reading)

Nightshade

[Steve Long]

Steve, could you clarify what you meant by "strongly in favor of doing away with the hex"? Are you just referring to the current idea of a 2 meter hex, or doing away with hexes on all maps published by Hero, or what? I couldn't care less whether a hex is 1 or 2 meters or some other measurement entirely, but using hexes to figure movement is a lot easier than dragging out a tape measure at the gaming table every time someone wants to walk across a room.

I'm referring to the hex as a unique unit of measurement. Whether we go on marking our maps with hexes is completely beside the point. Putting a hex on a map as an aid to play and visualization is a separate matter from "you must learn a special way of measuring things to play this game," which is what I want to eliminate.

But in fact, many (if not most) of the maps we've published in 5E haven't had a hex grid on them and I don't recall getting any complaints. What's important is making sure that the scale's marked on the map so everyone know's what's what.

[Yansuf]

[QUOTE=Steve Long;1536935]
Q: Should we change the type of dice used?

No, using only the common d6 is one of HERO's strengths

Q: Should we change the way dice are rolled?

No, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
The current system also makes "loaded dice" unlikely. That can be given as a reason for it.

Q: Should we get rid of the hex/inch as a unit of measurement?

I agree that the "inch" should go, but I have no trouble with hexes. Perhaps a sidebar explaining how to convert to squares would be good.
A hex=1 meter would be fine.

Q: Should we change to Imperial measurements?
Q: Should we change the rules for rounding?

No to both, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Q: Should we eliminate the distinction between Active Points and Real Points?

I can see some usefulness to this, but it probably would be a too much trouble.


Q: Should we redefine the HERO System to allow for “absolutes”?

I don't think so; while Superman was once "Invulnerable", in the animated series type setting he never was. Anyway, how do you do "Invulnerable" and still allow some entities to cause damage? Yes, Superman was vulnerable to kryptonite and magic, but also to cosmic entities (like Darsaid.) I think having to rate some things as "Cosmic" is too much trouble.

Q: Should some version of the “Hero Points” rules from Pulp Hero be included in the core rules?

Seems like a good idea.


Q: Should the Superheroic concept of “you have to pay for everything” be explained in greater detail?

Absolutely! I recall a GM (in Champions) who was going to rule that a PC who had taken "filthy rich" as a perk, had to pay points for his sportscar, even though he would never use it as a hero (he could fly faster.) Fortunately, we talked him out of that.
Similarly, if a Superhero is a police officer in his (or her) secret ID, I believe that they shouldn't have to pay for their standard police equipment, unless they habitually take them on adventures in costume. If a burgler breaks into officer Friendly's apartment, I see no problem with his pulling out his service weapon, and still not paying points for it, as long as he doesn't carry it when adventuring as Heroman.

On a related note, I feel that the costs of skills should be handled somewhat differently between heroic and superheroic games. A Dark Champions Police Procedural where the PC's are detectives and/or CSIs needs detailed breakdown of skills; but most superhero PC's shouldn't have to pay loads of points for the skills they should have, unless they will often be significant in game. Yes, some superheroes are largely skill based, but should Superman have to take 50 or 60 points in skills that he has used sometimes (as Clark or not?) As I recall (and it has been a long time since I read a Superman comic) Clark should have PS:Journalist at 16- or so (multiple pulitzer prize winner), PS: Writer; PS:Investigator; Acting, Bribery, Bureaucratics, Concealment, Conversation, Criminology (low level), Deduction, Disguise, High Society, Lipreading, Persuasion, Shadowing, Stealth, Streetwise, Research and numerous knowledge skills; plus Superman has used Mimicry, Ventriloquism, and Navigation (space at least).
That's over 60 points, without the KS and AKS!

[CourtFool]

Psha, yeah. Good bye, hex. Hello metre.

[CourtFool]

If it ain't broke, don't fix it = tradition = the world is flat. Challenge everything! Evolve or die. Wait...this is not NGD...

[TSandman]

I wanted to say something on the Active/Real cost of powers earlier but couldn't get my mind around WHAT I liked about it...

As a new player/future GM, I like the way I can measure a power with it's "Maximum Effect" (what you can do with the best conditions on your side) and the "Average Effect" (what you can do normally). I personally want to know that because we (our group) have some issues with min/maxers and players having poking holes and finding loopholes as a hobby... You can limit the Maximum effect easily, or you can let the player get MetaGalactic Heroes throw the M31 galaxy at each other for 10 real points (of two phonebooks of limitation requirements are met).

At least, that's how I understood it the first time I read about it last december

[buzz]

Q: Should some version of the “Hero Points” rules from Pulp Hero be included in the core rules?

Steve’s Thoughts: I’m in favor of doing this, even if I only make them optional, because I think it’s a valuable mechanic that can add a lot to many campaigns. Players seem to like having just a bit of control over things, and Hero Points gives that to them without running roughshod over the GM. I think they enhance the “dramatic realism” aspect of the HERO System.

Hero Points, or some sort of "dramatic editing" needs to be core. This should not even be a question. Especially if you make the change to Disads mentioned in that thread.

Q: Should the Superheroic concept of “you have to pay for everything” be explained in greater detail?

Steve’s Thoughts: I think it should. I think gaming and gamers have matured to the point where we can safely explain that even in Superheroic games, it’s probably OK to have minor items (like ordinary flashlights and cellular phones) without paying for them. Combat-effective items like weapons and armor should always require points, but I don’t think it’s going to unbalance anyone’s campaign if characters have ordinary cars to drive around in “for free.”

Similarly, I want to emphasize early in the 6E rulebook that GMs shouldn’t stress about making characters pay points for things that don’t really have any impact on the campaign. If you want your character to be an expert on Italian literature, just write down KS: Italian Literature 17- for 0 points — when is that ever likely to have any effect on the game? Even some standard Skills, like Navigation, probably only need to be paid for in certain types of campaigns. Bringing this issue to everyone’s attention early on should effectively counteract the idiotic and ignorant arguments we sometimes see about “you have to buy chairs with Character Points.”

Absolutely.

Conversely, I'd like a better solution for non-Supers games. Money can easily break Heroic games, but there's very little guidance as to how to deal with it. The Resource Points rules in DC are the best solution I saw in 5ER.

Better yet, just make Heroic PCs pay for important gear with points, too.

[ghost-angel]

My only thoughts and contributions, because I agree with Steve on most things...

I don't like Hero Points at all, not one bit. Didn't like Fate Chips in Deadlands, don't like 'em however you dress it up anywhere, anyway, anyhow. To me they are nothing but a meta-gaming tactic to prevent creative gaming.

Make them an optional rule because more options are always better (even if we don't like the options - having them is cool). But as a core rule - I hates them I do.

[archermoo]

Q: Should we change the type of dice used?

I like keeping d6 for effects, but I think the rules should at least mention the idea of using different dice for resolution. As others have noted, the more sides you add to a die the less impact a single +/-1 has, and the more options are available. I've found that 3d10 works very well, and gives more granularity to skills and combat levels.

Q: Should we change the way dice are rolled?

Please no. In fact, changing the type of dice used for resolution would give an easy way to explain to those gamers that have a problem with some rolls being high and some low. Just tell 'em that if you're rolling d10 you want low, if you're rolling d6 you want to roll high.

Q: Should we get rid of the hex/inch as a unit of measurement?

Please do!

Q: Should we change to Imperial measurements?

Bleh. I LIKE the metric system. In a lot of cases I'm much more comfortable with it than Imperial measurements. And I don't see changing it adding anything to the game.

Q: Should we change the rules for rounding?

Don't see anything wrong with them.

Q: Should we eliminate the distinction between Active Points and Real Points?

Another one of those things that defines what HERO is to me.

Q: Should we redefine the HERO System to allow for “absolutes”?

Another one I dislike. If anything a discussion on how to create "absolute" type effects for specific games might be useful.

Q: Should some version of the “Hero Points” rules from Pulp Hero be included in the core rules?

Been using a Hero Point system for more than a decade.

Q: Should the Superheroic concept of “you have to pay for everything” be explained in greater detail?

Yes, please!

[buzz]

Explain?

http://drivingblind.livejournal.com/213262.html

HERO currently lives in the upper-left quadrant of the above-linked diagram. I'd like to see it move to the right, though it's welcome to stay in the upper half.

[Fedifensor]

Dice: Changing from 3d6 makes it a different system. The two extremes are roughly 1 in 200 each, which is more variety than D&D while occurring less often than the "natural 20" or "natural 1". The bell curve avoids the problem of D&D where even a skilled user has a larger failure chance than would be expected (and an unskilled user has a higher success chance). I say keep it as is. At best, you could refine the mechanic to focus more on levels of success or failure, rather than just throwing modifiers at the roll and having a binary pass/fail.

Measurements and Maps: I say go to a straight metric measurement (converting on factors of 10 is easier in a game system), and let people choose squares or maps. Personally, I dislike the fact that I can't do both North/South and East/West movement on a hex mat...I'm zigging and zagging on one of the axis because of the 60 degree angles. Plus, drawing buildings and other 'square' features is harder on a hex map. I think Gygax realized this in the original D&D when hexes were used outdoors and squares were used inside...

Rounding: That really depends on what other changes are made in the rules. If everything else stays as is, I don't see a reason to change.

Absolutes: You already have Desolidification, and there have been suggestions on how to create absolutes in the current rules (via buying enough attack/defense via standard effect to overcome the maximums in the campaign). Let absolutes be an option, not part of the core rules.

Hero Points: Absolutely! You've stated the system should reflect the "dramatic realism" of the movies. If you want people doing what they see in the movies, they need a way to adjust their chances of success at critical points in the story. Hero points would also diminish the problem of the die roll range issues with 3d6. Maybe a character has a vanishing small chance to hit his foe normally, but has a number of replenishing Hero points that he uses to adjust the roll at a critical moment. I am strongly in favor of being able to buy extra Hero points (similar to some of the Luck variant systems), and having the points rejuvenate by scene rather than session or adventure.

[buzz]

Q: Should we change the type of dice used?

Nope.

Q: Should we change the way dice are rolled?

Nope. Last thing I need is to be rolling more dice in HERO.

Whatever issues there are with HERO, the use of d6s and 3d6-roll-under are not among them.