General Rules Issues

[SteveZilla]

Either,

1.We assert that “Class of Mind” is a good, valid, useful idea, and therefore so is “Class of Body.” OR
2.We assert that “Class of Body” is not a good, valid, useful idea, and therefore neither is “Class of Mind.” OR
3.We're being logically inconsistent.

3. To have a "Class of Body", that character has to pay for the attributes that body would have (like Armor or Desolidification), but with "Class of Mind", all that takes is an "I say so", and they get effectively a "Mental Desolidification" for free.

I don't want to get rid of the Classes of Minds rules altogether. I just think they should apply to only certain things like Telepathy, Mental Illusions, and Mind Control, and Mental Transforms. And I would favor restructuring them in a similar manner as Language Similarities. But IMO you don't have to be able to communicate with Mr Alien Mind to be able to Ego Blast his @ss into next week. Which is also a form of communication.

[Chris Goodwin]

1.We assert that “Class of Mind” is a good, valid, useful idea, and therefore so is “Class of Body.” OR
2.We assert that “Class of Body” is not a good, valid, useful idea, and therefore neither is “Class of Mind.” OR
3.We're being logically inconsistent.

Are you asserting that body and mind are equivalent and should act the same way?

Should we therefore fold BODY and EGO together into one stat?

[Chris Goodwin]

3. To have a "Class of Body", that character has to pay for the attributes that body would have (like Armor or Desolidification), but with "Class of Mind", all that takes is an "I say so", and they get effectively a "Mental Desolidification" for free.

But they don't. In order to affect someone who is Desolid, you have to buy Affects Desolid on your attacks, for +1/2. In order to affect someone who is a different Class of Mind, all you have to do is.... buy a Mental Power.

In order for someone who is Desolid to affect you with their attacks, they have to pay a +2 Advantage. In order for someone who is of a different Class of Mind to affect you, all they have to do is.... buy a Mental Power.

[Hugh Neilson]

But they don't. In order to affect someone who is Desolid, you have to buy Affects Desolid on your attacks, for +1/2. In order to affect someone who is a different Class of Mind, all you have to do is.... buy a Mental Power.

In order for someone who is Desolid to affect you with their attacks, they have to pay a +2 Advantage. In order for someone who is of a different Class of Mind to affect you, all they have to do is.... buy a Mental Power.

The arguments that "Class of Body" won't work fail to recognize that the concept is no more unworkable than "classes of mind". The rules would be changed to make the two consistent.

I suggest this might work as follows:

- all attacks affect a single Class of Mind (mental) or Body (physical) by default.

- for a +1/4 advantage, your attack power can affect a second Class (just as Affects Desolid currently permits you to affect a second Class of Body/desolid SFX)

- for a +1/2 advantage, you affect any Class of Body/Mind (just as Affects Desolid currently permits you to affect any Class of Body/desolid SFX)

- your attacks would affect your Class of Mind or Body by default.

- for a +0 advantage, your attack instead affects a different Class of Mind or Body, other than your own.

- for a +1/4 advantage, your attack can add one Class of Mind or Body other than your own.

- for a +1/2 advantage, a second Class of Mind/Body can be affected.

- Each added +1/4 adds another Class, with +2 affecting any class, regardless of how many there are.

Maybe this changes to "an extra +1/4 doubles the number of classes". Maybe it moves in +1/2 increments rather than +1/4.

- we would also need a power which permits the character to change his Class of Mind/Class of Body at his discretion (much like Desolid currently does, but with the broader possibility, whether by Adder or Advantage, of changing to more than one different Class).

[Stray thought: we should change the name - many gamers note the lack of Classes as a strength of Hero, but we have Classes of Mind...]

The mechanics are easily adjusted. You could just as easily add a Class to your attack for a +10 adder, with each added class costing an extra 10 points. However, the point is pretty straightforward - presently, the rules for Class of Mind are inconsistent with the other rules, especially "class of Body". It would not be that difficult to make them consistent by either:

- adopting a Class of Body rule such as that above, or

- eliminating Classes of Mind in favour of a Desolid-like structure which is mental rather than physical.

I prefer the latter, as I prefer this to the current "I say I have a different Class of Mind, so I am immune to mental powers unless a character thought about my Class of Mind and spent extra to have a power that affects it". The former, however, would at least improve consistency, so it would be the (distant) second choice.

[Tonio]

The arguments that "Class of Body" won't work fail to recognize that the concept is no more unworkable than "classes of mind". The rules would be changed to make the two consistent.

I suggest this might work as follows:

- all attacks affect a single Class of Mind (mental) or Body (physical) by default.

- for a +1/4 advantage, your attack power can affect a second Class (just as Affects Desolid currently permits you to affect a second Class of Body/desolid SFX)

- for a +1/2 advantage, you affect any Class of Body/Mind (just as Affects Desolid currently permits you to affect any Class of Body/desolid SFX)

- your attacks would affect your Class of Mind or Body by default.

- for a +0 advantage, your attack instead affects a different Class of Mind or Body, other than your own.

- for a +1/4 advantage, your attack can add one Class of Mind or Body other than your own.

- for a +1/2 advantage, a second Class of Mind/Body can be affected.

- Each added +1/4 adds another Class, with +2 affecting any class, regardless of how many there are.

Maybe this changes to "an extra +1/4 doubles the number of classes". Maybe it moves in +1/2 increments rather than +1/4.

- we would also need a power which permits the character to change his Class of Mind/Class of Body at his discretion (much like Desolid currently does, but with the broader possibility, whether by Adder or Advantage, of changing to more than one different Class).

[Stray thought: we should change the name - many gamers note the lack of Classes as a strength of Hero, but we have Classes of Mind...]

The mechanics are easily adjusted. You could just as easily add a Class to your attack for a +10 adder, with each added class costing an extra 10 points. However, the point is pretty straightforward - presently, the rules for Class of Mind are inconsistent with the other rules, especially "class of Body". It would not be that difficult to make them consistent by either:

- adopting a Class of Body rule such as that above, or

- eliminating Classes of Mind in favour of a Desolid-like structure which is mental rather than physical.

I prefer the latter, as I prefer this to the current "I say I have a different Class of Mind, so I am immune to mental powers unless a character thought about my Class of Mind and spent extra to have a power that affects it". The former, however, would at least improve consistency, so it would be the (distant) second choice.

Bodies and minds are two different things. You shouldn't presume to apply what works for one to the other.

Also, this "immunity" is built into the power. Presumably, Mental Powers are balanced considering Classes of Mind. A Desolid-like structure doesn't work because characters with a different class of mind aren't immune to mental powers, they're vulnerable to a different set of mental powers. I know Desolid requires you to be vulnerable to an SFX... but if we use this for a replacement for Classes of Mind, we end up requiring everybody to buy some sort of Mental Desolid (machines would buy Mental Desolid (affected by machine mental powers), animals would buy Mental Desolid (affected by animal mental powers), humans would buy Mental Desolid (affected by human mental powers), etc.).

I think Classes of Minds works fine, except that given a certain campaign/world, some Classes of Mind should cost. In a mentalist campaign where sentient machines are extremely rare, choosing Machine Class of Mind should cost a significant amount, since Mental Powers are presumably common, but mental powers affecting machines are presumably rare. On the other hand, picking Animal Class of Mind in a fantasy campaign might not be worth anything, and might even warrant a Disadvantage if druids and rangers are proliferous.

The GM should probably set costs (advantageous Classes of Minds should be Perks, problematic ones, Disadvantages, probably Physical Limitations) for all Classes of Mind; the book should list some guildelines.

[James Gillen]

But they don't. In order to affect someone who is Desolid, you have to buy Affects Desolid on your attacks, for +1/2. In order to affect someone who is a different Class of Mind, all you have to do is.... buy a Mental Power.

In order for someone who is Desolid to affect you with their attacks, they have to pay a +2 Advantage. In order for someone who is of a different Class of Mind to affect you, all they have to do is.... buy a Mental Power.

Or buy an Adder.

To me, the point isn't to demonstrate why "Class of Body" is viable, it's to use that point to illustrate why "Class of Mind" is absurd.

jg

[Vulcan]

The issue of 'Classes of Minds' is being discussed on the Powers Issues -- L-R thread, you might want to see what is being said there.

[Chris Goodwin]

Or buy an Adder.

No, you don't have to buy an Adder. You can buy your Mental Power to affect any single Class of Mind, for zero extra cost.

[Chris Goodwin]

The arguments that "Class of Body" won't work fail to recognize that the concept is no more unworkable than "classes of mind". The rules would be changed to make the two consistent.

I suggest this might work as follows:

- all attacks affect a single Class of Mind (mental) or Body (physical) by default.

What is the special effect of a different Class of Body that would make it difficult or impossible to affect by most Attack Powers?

[AnotherSkip]

Actualy there is a great deal of C.O.M. discussion going on, much of which I started. Just call me Mr Evil, after all, I havent spent four years at any school.

[BobGreenwade]

Yeah some of those four siders were plenty sharp. The ones I got were trimmed off at the end to reduce their damage potential but still, step on one and you knew it.

It's bad enough just pushing oneself up from the table and finding a d4 under your palm....

[Tonio]

It's bad enough just pushing oneself up from the table and finding a d4 under your palm....

On the plus side, d4's rarely, if ever, rolled off the table, while d20's and d12's did so almost constantly.

[CTaylor]

I have a set of D20s from the original Top Secret boxed set, they are so round they are almost spheres. It can take a long time for them to stop rolling, even in a container. I love those old dice you had to use beeswax crayons to bring out the numbers in.

[Tonio]

I have a set of D20s from the original Top Secret boxed set, they are so round they are almost spheres. It can take a long time for them to stop rolling, even in a container. I love those old dice you had to use beeswax crayons to bring out the numbers in.

I actually figured out (or more likely found out) about the crayon thing years after having used those dice!

[Hugh Neilson]

What is the special effect of a different Class of Body that would make it difficult or impossible to affect by most Attack Powers?

What is it about being an animal that makes it difficult or impossible to affect by most mental powers? I think chimps and dolphins have a lot more in common with humans, from a mental perspective, than bugs and fish do, yet fish, bugs, chimps and dolphins are considered different enough from humans, yet sufficiently similar to each other, to be a separate "class of mind" by the book.

Similarly, all aliens fall into a single class of mind by the book, as do all mechanical intelligences. The Vision, the Borg, C-3P0 and R2-D2 and the Replicators are all similar enough to each other, but different enough from humans, to be a single, separate, class of mind?? Similarly, Kryponians, the Klingons, the Ferengi, Betazoids, the Shadows, the Vorlons, the Narn, the Goa'uld and Wookies are allsimilar enough to each other, but different enough from humans, to be a single, separate, class of mind?? Why?

Class of Body? Superheroic. They are unaffected by the weapons of mundane mortals, so bullets and flamethrowers have no ill effects on them, yet Blasters and Flameboy's Firebolts affect them, but no more so, really, than they affect Flying Rodent Man, who's just a guy dressed up in a superhero suit. Guess the blasters and Firebolts bought the Adder for Real Human and Superheroic classes of body.

The point is not that Classes of Body is a magnificent simulation of reality, cinematic or otherwise, and should be the first thing added to 6e. It is that Classes of Mind are not any more germane to either form of reality, nor the source material, and should also go.