Why We're Creating The 6th Edition -- Please Read Before Posting

[Steve Long]

if this MMO uses Hero 6th's ruleset

We've stated this several times, but clearly it bears repeating:

The CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMO is not a "HERO System MMO." Cryptic did not buy the HERO System rules; we still own them. The MMO will not be using the HERO System rules for character creation, combat resolution, or anything else.

Now, Cryptic has licensed from us the right to use some of our terminology, if they want, with our approval; thus, if they have an intangibility power they could call it Desolidification. This will, at least in theory, be immensely helpful to us when it comes to attracting MMO players to buying Hero books and playing the HERO System. But that's a far cry from using the actual rules mechanics... which, to repeat, they are not doing.

We now return you to your regularly-scheduled discussion.

[McCoy]

Also, it seems that many people have missed my point: I, like everyone else around here, welcome dissenting opinion. Without it, there's no innovation. What I was taking issue with was people who are just throwing up their hands in disgust and threatening to leave if 6E happens.

And I think you've missed my point, and the point of several others. I don't see anyone saying they will quit if 6E happens. 6E is happening, that's a done deal.

What I am saying, what I hear others saying, is that I have been here from the begining, I have played this game for 25 years, I stuck through one absolutely disasterous rules revision, and that could-not-possibly-be-as-long-as-it- felt-like period when the Big Blue Book was out of print and the release date for FRED kept being put back.

Truth to tell, I liked some of the rules in 4th ed better than 5th ed. This gives me a shiver when Steve talks about fixing the engine. My fear is that the high preformance V-8 in the BBB has been replaced by a Sideways Six, and now even that is going to be pulled out and replaced by a Wankel. Which Steve has every right to do if he wants to.

I will buy the PDF of 6th ed as soon as it is available. I would love for my fear to be proven wrong.

But if I am not wrong, I am not promising to ride this wave like I did the others. Steve is gambling with our customer loyality, we want him to be aware of that when he rolls the dice.

In any event, the artwork in 6th ed will almost certainly be better. That's one bright spot.

[caris]

Although I understand what you've written, and even if I did agree this was the best course of action, the problem you're overlooking is the cost of maintaining two product lines. Each group of people are going to expect a certain amount of support and x number of supplements published per year. So, instead of supporting one primary game line, you're now supporting two. This would create an overhead that most companies, especially in this current climate, cannot sustain.

I have to respectfully disagree, your post indicates to me that you did not understand me. You are so fixated on a minor second point to the point that you are telling me things that I thought I clearly stated in my post as if I was completely unaware of it. Yes, the Hero Games customer base is in a situation where sales are not supporting the company. They have to energize sales. Quite frankly it is the fact that some many companies have taken the “create a new edition to make the existing customer to spend money on updates to the new edition” that creates the kind of reaction that we got from Caped Crusader. This strategy of releasing a new edition to excite new sales is becoming less effective every time it is used by any company. The view that it is just a gimmick to get sales out of the current customer base is really starting to spread no matter which company is doing it.

Yes, a new edition is going to cause a schism, and if they are going to have to bring in new players. I’ll what I’ve said twice now. I don’t think anything that is recognizable as Hero System as we now it, is going to be able to bring in a significant amount of new players. If the goal is to really bring in a significant influx of new players the change has to be so much that those potential new players if you to think of it as some thing completely different from what it is. So, yeah, I think that since what I’m saying is they have to pretty much create a brand new system that they should do just that, create a new system. What part of :

“Let Hero system go fallow for a while, give the market sometime off, and come back to Hero again later. Yeah, I'm saying that even after the Fuzion debacle. I think that one of the biggest mistakes that Fuzion made was trying to position itself as just another from of Hero, when it really wasn't.

OK, dropping the Hero line completely might be much, but perhaps reduce the output of Hero for a while maybe to 2 or 3 a year, while ramping up something different.”

made you think that I expect, or want Hero Games to attempt to fully produce two complete gaming lines? Did I back off some from the complete drop? Yes, because it probably would be seen as too much like the Fuzion debacle. Sure, in my dreams, I imagine some cute fluffy extremely popular game system being created by DoJ that lets them produce Hero books to their hearts content, but that ain’t gonna happen!

The real problem is that I don’t think that Steve and Darren want to run just any gaming company. I think they want to run the game company that produces Hero System product. Me, I want them to run a gaming company that is going to be here in another 20 years. (Do I still want to be gaming at 60? Probably)

Yes, the RPG market is weak, and it is trying to cover the overhead with a single product line that is really killing the smaller companies. Of course, I can’t really be sure that what you mean by overhead and what I mean by overhead is the same thing. I think most companies that try to rely on a single product line to keep them going are going to be in real trouble. They are going to have to diversify in some way. Current methods of diversification haven’t really been working for Hero Games, apparently.

As for the inevitability of 6E? As the saying goes, “it ain’t over until the fat lady sings.” IIRC, at least two Hero Projects were announced prior to the decision to create Fuzion and got canceled by the decision to switch to Fuzion.

[James Gillen]

You obviously have never owned your own business.

A single disgruntled customer, in and of themselves, is no great loss. But for every person who speaks up, there are some ten to a hundred who silently take their business elsewhere.

Right now the RPG industry, like comic books, is dealing with a shrinking, ageing customer base. Trying to expand that customer base is good business sense. However, offending the existing customer base on the chance of attracting a new customer base is gambling. Could win big. Could lose big.

I, and a lot of people, are taking a "wait and see" attitude. If this change is an improvement, we will continue, buying the new rules and probably two to three books a year. If the new rules are changes for the sake of change and making the existing products not compatatable with the new rules, then a lot of us will pick up any 5th ed stuff we don't have at the close-out sale then go our own way.

By the way, if the reason for this change is "To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG," if we are trying to bring in a new customer base from their exposure to a Superhero game, doesn't this seem like the time to embrace our superhero roots rather than try to distance ourselves from them?

Thoughts on this:

Given that the new website design actually seems to emphasize the CHAMPIONS part a lot more than it ever did, it seems that much more counterintuitive to sell off the intellectual property, which effectively the company is now hawking for Cryptic. With all due respect it isn't something I would have done. The book is the business, Champions is what helps get people in the door.

Yes, obviously Hero is not just Champions and has not been just Champions since before 4th Edition. Las Vegas isn't just gambling, booze and strippers. But as much as I want to emphasize that, getting rid of those things would kill our economy. It's not worth obsessing over, since the deal is signed and done, but I wanted it noted.

Tonight I told my gaming group about the news, and the general consensus was like "Well hey, we're still playing AD&D 2nd Edition and West End STAR WARS. If we don't like this, we're not buying it."

So on one hand, you've got to give the aging grognards (those of us who have mounting bills and decreasing disposable income) a reason to buy a book we "already have." If the new edition is not an improvement, or too much hassle to convert, there's still the 5th Edition material, which of course works perfectly well.

On the other hand, you need to get newer gamers, many of whom learned of a "roleplaying game" as something you insert in a Playstation or CD drive. They don't know how great this game is or why it's great. You have to give them a reason to buy something that may be their first tabletop experience.
Sidekick, 5ER, and the plan to sell one character-based corebook are great steps in this direction (splitting the corebook also reduces the short-term entry cost) but I think there's still more that we could do.

Y'know what I want from HERO 6th? I want HERO 6th to be to HERO 5th what Daniel Craig is to Pierce Brosnan.

If that makes any sense.

JG

[James Gillen]

Which, again, is why I'm just a little disillusioned. I honestly thought that people would (maybe I'm projecting again) embrace the idea of voicing opinions that until now fell smack on deaf ears.

"I don't answer design/philosphy questions" is now:

"Let's talk openly about design and philosophy, because I know what I think will make HERO better; I'd like to hear what you cats think."

Again, not to speak for Steve, but "I don't answer game philosophy questions" made sense because 5th was already set and the interpretation was only about what to be done with it. Game philosophy questions are relevant now.

JG

[lemming]

I just hope the DOJ will not follow the tread of "reworking" all the books and then releasing them again.

Well, I think the timing could of been better for the 6th in that if had happened a bit earlier to take advantage of the bleed off from D&D, but that's wishful thinking.

Having a MMO coming out with artwork that is used for an RPG will probably attract some new players and in that, the timing is good, though that's speculating that a project comes in on time from the SW world. (It happens, really. )

I don't think it's in DoJ's interest to drive off the existing fan base, since we're the ones that will be for the most part answering questions in the forums for the hoped for influx, much like we do now. Invalidating our knowledge of the system wouldn't serve that purpose. So I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic and see how it develops over the next year.

[Enforcer84]

What you got against me Enforcer84? I never suggested pulling supers out of Hero.

I've got nothing against the Llama! (especially since my negatives were destroyed in the fire *sigh*) and I really have nothing against the sheep. I just thought the idea of you guys solving crimes would be funny.

[Enforcer84]

I'm not upset that you don't agree, Caris; I'm saying that any extremism is kind of pointless.

Unless it's extremely pointed.

[Gadodel]

Maybe, just maybe; the folks who are not ready for 6E now-might be in 2009. It's a ways away. Just as possible, some folks who are ready for it now, might start altering their game as Steve gives up sneak peaks along the way. Time will tell.

Waiting. Watching closely. Reserving judgment. Until then, I'm still rolling the dice.

[Thia Halmades]

You know, as an aside, I submit that in fact the Supers have been removed from HERO.

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold. *blink blink* So the rat-powered-lamb gets his wish. And Chad will now cry.

[caris]

You know, as an aside, I submit that in fact the Supers have been removed from HERO.

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold. *blink blink* So the rat-powered-lamb gets his wish. And Chad will now cry.

Ah, so now Akiva is committed...

to buying two copies of 6E. I'm sure Steve and company will be more than happy to accept his prepayment for those two copies today.

[GamePhil]

You know, as an aside, I submit that in fact the Supers have been removed from HERO.

Since, you know, Champions & Dark Champions just got sold. *blink blink* So the rat-powered-lamb gets his wish. And Chad will now cry.

Not quite. They sold the IP rights for Champions to Cryptic, it's true, but they are licensed for no cost to use the IP, so they can produce Champions books still.

I'm pretty sure you knew that and were joking, but don't want people just staggering in here the wrong idea

And Dark Champions isn't supers :P

[Kirby]

Unless it's extremely pointed.

You're a sharp one.

[Akiva]

Wait. What were we talking about?

[Chris Goodwin]

Wait. What were we talking about?

Monkeys.