Why We're Creating The 6th Edition -- Please Read Before Posting

[ghost-angel]

Okay, I'm confused.

The hero system rulebook will be two volumes. Or does "two volumes" refer to the rulebook and some other book?

The current best analogy is Book 1 will be the Character Creation Handbook and Book 2 will be the Combat Handbook (with all the Environmental stuff).

I have mixed feelings on the split.

On one hand I like the idea of 1 book being all I ever need.
On the other I think it's a good idea to separate Creation from Play.

[KawangaKid]

I keep saying that and nobody listens to me....
jg

I'm listening - and trying to figure out where the two volume thing was announced! I've been checking out the proposed rules changes and thinking about them so much...

... I'm against it. I think that we should pare down the Hero System to its core. Then a Hero System Companion book can be released with ALLLLLLLLLLL the options we want.

One of my favorite ways to market the Hero System rules was you only NEED one book to run ANY game setting. You'll WANT the rest of the books for other reasons (shortcuts to builds in the genres, instant settings, instant NPCs, etc.)

[Derek Hiemforth]

On one hand I like the idea of 1 book being all I ever need.

One of my favorite ways to market the Hero System rules was you only NEED one book to run ANY game setting.

This is still conceptually true, even if it won't still be literally true. The core rules of the HERO System are all you need to run in any game or genre. It's just that the core rules will now happen to be presented in two volumes instead of one.

I personally agree with you that I'd prefer the core rules to be more concise, so they can continue to fit in a single volume, and present the less crucial and more explanatory material in a "HERO System Companion" kind of book. However, I'm certain Hero Games won't do this, nor do I really think it would be advisable for them to.

Why?

Because I feel quite sure that total sales of Core Rules One and Core Rules Two would greatly exceed total sales of Core Rules and HERO System Companion. Too many gamers would decide they didn't need the Companion (or that only one person their group needed it).

Hero Games is in the business of selling books to make money. So as long as they're not flagrantly doing things to artificially boost sales (and they're not... splitting the core rules into two volumes is a legit approach), I can hardly begrudge them choosing to present their material in a way that won't cost them sales.

[Vondy]

This is still conceptually true, even if it won't still be literally true. The core rules of the HERO System are all you need to run in any game or genre. It's just that the core rules will now happen to be presented in two volumes instead of one.

I personally agree with you that I'd prefer the core rules to be more concise, so they can continue to fit in a single volume, and present the less crucial and more explanatory material in a "HERO System Companion" kind of book. However, I'm certain Hero Games won't do this, nor do I really think it would be advisable for them to.

Why?

Because I feel quite sure that total sales of Core Rules One and Core Rules Two would greatly exceed total sales of Core Rules and HERO System Companion. Too many gamers would decide they didn't need the Companion (or that only one person their group needed it).

Hero Games is in the business of selling books to make money. So as long as they're not flagrantly doing things to artificially boost sales (and they're not... splitting the core rules into two volumes is a legit approach), I can hardly begrudge them choosing to present their material in a way that won't cost them sales.

I can see and agree with the logic of your arugment from a business sense. My personal feeling, however, is that I would rather have one core book of mechanics and have all the other material (examples, advice, etcetera) shoved into a book entitled "secrets of the longster" or some such. I know that may not be the best thing for hero, but I still don't like it very much. I agree with your "sales sense," however.

[ghost-angel]

I agree completely with Derek's statement.

emotionally.. I just want one book.
logically I want it to be two books.

And the logic just makes way more sense here. So I'm shoving my emotional reaction into a box on this topic.

[SAVeira]

I have no problem with two books and here is why. Due to a couple of medical reasons I no longer the strength I had in my hands. One book would be just too hard for me to hold up for a long period of time. I believe that I am not alone in this situation.

[Tech]

I have mixed feelings with this but I am of 'wait & see' camp. I'm not happy the IP of Champions being sold but I am intrigued by Champions Online. I've read every post and seen alot of feelings: some pro, some against, some middle ground. I do understand that any company cannot simply sit on it's laurels and past achievements and still make money. I also have seen the powers-that-be take us from 'no hero system/champions books' to '5th edition and lots of books'.

I'm one of those that was around when the 1st edition of Champions first came out and started making a name. I've seen the 2nd-5th editions and I'm still playing Champions along with my group (most likely having a game this very evening). Gradually, most of 5th edition was accepted by me & my friends & brothers (but not all). I do want to point out that the reason so many books got bought by me, my friends & brothers is because we keep the genre alive. We disagree with alot of the 5th edition rules and merely stay with houserules or previous editions. It is important to give consideration to the voices of new players because the company wants to grow; it's also important to give considerations to old-timers because we can influence people to buy books or say 'it's not worth it, don't bother' and I've done both. What the results are of 6th edition eventually will again be considered by my group as I'm sure it will by all of herodom.

I want the 6th edition to be the kind of edition that new players of any age will look at it and say 'Yow! This is great! I'm going to tell my friends!'. By the same token, the rules are going to change. How much, time will tell. Steve and the others are trying to walk the fine line of making it acceptable to as many as possible and have it grow and yet not alienate any of the 'longer time players'. I don't envy him on this. He's put out dozens of questions for feedback because he wants our, well, feedback and that's good. Having more art will help draw in fresh blood, I'm sure. It bears repeating again that the main reason I first bought Champions 1st edtion was because of the cover, not the inside - for some art doesn't matter, for others it does.

It hasn't even been a week and players are throwing up their hands saying 'if this happens or that happens, I'm outta here'. I understand those feelings. By the same token though, let's wait and see. Let's give the forums time to hear from players to see what they want and don't want. Let's wait and see, not jumping to conclusions when it's going to be a long while; alot can happen in a year or less. If someone doesn't like something, please say so politely in the forum for the 6th edition and vice versa. For myself, I'm going to take time to add my thoughts and others, I'll read them carefully and add more thoughts. I'll wait & see.

[kaptainai]

I'm afraid I can't see me buying into it....I've spent far too much cash on the 5th Edition and most of the additional books to start over again.

[incrdbil]

I'm afraid I can't see me buying into it....I've spent far too much cash on the 5th Edition and most of the additional books to start over again.

Usually, no one starts all over agin. I've got plenty of 4th edition stuff around, that just got tweaked over.

And, in a way, if you bought Fred, thine 5ER, that was sort of startign over in a way--repurchased the main rules, and incorperated changes. People cheerfully bought the Champiosn universe update.

Its buying new product really..somethign we've been doing before.

[Lord Mhoram]

Usually, no one starts all over agin. I've got plenty of 4th edition stuff around, that just got tweaked over.

Yeah. I don't plan on starting over if we switch to sixth. It all depends on how much changes (and how much I like them) if I switch. If I don't, I'll take any ideas I like and houserule them into 5th (just like I kept some 4th ed (and even some 3rd) in my current 5th games). And with the template stuff in DH, that reflects my games.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Obviously, I'm an aberration. I'll buy all the 6E stuff (unless Hero Games does something to radically tick me off, which I consider deeply unlikely), just because I'm a collector... I have every book ever published for the HERO System that I'm aware of. So I have to keep that collection complete in order to satisfy my twisted Psych Lims.

But if I wasn't an insane collector, then I'd probably be very likely to buy the 6E core rules only. The genre books getting redone for 6E would have to impress me more to make me buy them, just because I think the 5E genre books already rock on toast.

Of course, it's again worth noting that 6E is unlikely to get exceptionally heavy with re-done books. It might seem that way now, because they obviously have to publish the most central books first, and we've only seen the first few books in the 6E line. Once they get beyond that, I doubt they're likely to do tons of "do-overs" from 5E.

I.C.E did 55 books for 4E, and DOJ "re-did" only 9 of those for 5E, and that over a span of several years. At a glance, I see no big reason to think they would have dramatically more "re-dos" over the life cycle of 6E...

[archermoo]

Obviously, I'm an aberration. I'll buy all the 6E stuff (unless Hero Games does something to radically tick me off, which I consider deeply unlikely), just because I'm a collector... I have every book ever published for the HERO System that I'm aware of. So I have to keep that collection complete in order to satisfy my twisted Psych Lims.

But if I wasn't an insane collector, then I'd probably be very likely to buy the 6E core rules only. The genre books getting redone for 6E would have to impress me more to make me buy them, just because I think the 5E genre books already rock on toast.

Of course, it's again worth noting that 6E is unlikely to get exceptionally heavy with re-done books. It might seem that way now, because they obviously have to publish the most central books first, and we've only seen the first few books in the 6E line. Once they get beyond that, I doubt they're likely to do tons of "do-overs" from 5E.

I.C.E did 55 books for 4E, and DOJ "re-did" only 9 of those for 5E, and that over a span of several years. At a glance, I see no big reason to think they would have dramatically more "re-dos" over the life cycle of 6E...

I will also likely buy all of the 6e stuff. I'm not really a collector, and I didn't buy anything but the core rules for any previous versions. Some of that was due to being exceptionally poor at the time, some due to a lack of interest since I don't run in the CU. One reason that I have purchased all of the 5th edition books is because I wanted to support the company. Part of it is because the books are GOOD. And part of it is because I hate running into the dreaded "See page x in book y", when I don't have book y and it is no longer in print.

The only negative I've seen so far in the 6e announcements is that at least the core books are almost certainly going to be printed in colour. I hate the feel of the glossy papers that generally have to be used for colour books. I'm hoping they manage to go with paper that doesn't feel like crap to me.

[Lucius]

On the other hand, you need to get newer gamers, many of whom learned of a "roleplaying game" as something you insert in a Playstation or CD drive
JG

*SHUDDER*

Lucius Alexander

And the inevitable palindromedary

[kaptainai]

Usually, no one starts all over agin. I've got plenty of 4th edition stuff around, that just got tweaked over.

And, in a way, if you bought Fred, thine 5ER, that was sort of startign over in a way--repurchased the main rules, and incorperated changes. People cheerfully bought the Champiosn universe update.

Its buying new product really..somethign we've been doing before.

Except I didn't buy 5ER

[Derek Hiemforth]

The only negative I've seen so far in the 6e announcements is that at least the core books are almost certainly going to be printed in colour. I hate the feel of the glossy papers that generally have to be used for colour books. I'm hoping they manage to go with paper that doesn't feel like crap to me.

Failing that, you might be able to go the PDF route, and print them out as desired. More expensive in the long run, but customized.