Why We're Creating The 6th Edition -- Please Read Before Posting

[Kdansky]

I'm all for it. Honestly, I did not believe this to happen. But there are quite a few things I would like to see. To sum up:

- No simplification. I am quite happy with what we have, and I don't think for example having only 3-6 stats is better, quite the opposite.
- No grandfathering. I will happily rewrite all my characters. That's something I actually enjoy Get rid of the abominations (eg. figured con/str problem)

I want sleek, conceptually strong rules! Gogo!

[Velocinox]

As someone who has posted before on the Champions MMO concept, I wish you all the best in your new partnership and the exciting new path Steve, Derek, and all the other Hero writers are going to get to explore.

Here's my hopes that you get your slice of the 10 million times 15 times 12.

[Edsel]

Waiting to see all three reasons before passing judgment. I have pretty much thrown-in my lot with the Hero System, it is about the only RPG our group ever plays. I will probably stick with Hero unless the 6th Ed really disagrees with me.

[Omegaplex]

WE HAVE A WINNER!!!

This indeed seems like too much of a coincidence. I smells a lot like GURPS 4e.



Okay, in all fairness, I can understand to some extent a release of a HERO System 6th Edition.

1. From a financial stand point, it makes perfect sense. A new edition creates a potential for increased revenue.
2. It also gives a chance to clear some issues from a "game mechanics" point of view as well. Some of the issues of "over-complication" (like the whole "Regeneration issue") in the mechanics can be finally dealt with, and cleaned up.
3. It gives a chance to "streamline" the book formatting, making it more "user-friendly".

Well, the main problem I have is that I'll be waiting another 5 years to get books I don't already own. A big part of why I loved GURPS 3rd (and HERO 5th) is that they had an incredibly diverse array of books on the market.

With the GURPS relaunch, what have they released? Gee, Rules, Martial Arts, Powers, Bio-Tech, High-Tech, Space, Fantasy... blah blah blah. ALL the same stuff already done for 3rd, just facelifted. I want something NEW.

Same thing will happen with HERO - heck, it's even on the 2009 schedule. What books does HERO get after 6th launches? Martial Arts, Sidekick, Champions, and Champions Universe. I suppose Space, Fantasy, and Dark Champions will follow, along with UNTIL and VIPER sourcebooks, Pulp, villain books...

Anybody else see what I'm getting at here? It's like the 'new book' days are over. Time to go back and redo all the stuff we've all got. That's why I bailed on GURPS, and why I'm tentative about HERO.

[Akiva]

I've always been confused at why people get so upset and offended at the publication of a new edition of their favorite game. They seem to either suddenly point the finger at the publisher and accuse them of suddenly becoming greedy or they threaten to leave the game entirely. Also, the comparisons to GURPS 4e are odd: I'm certain that if GURPS wasn't also a generic system, no one would even think about it. I don't see people pointing at the publication of Ars Magica 5th Edition as some kind of example at how DoJ has gone from a beloved friend to a shifty whisper in a back alley.

No matter what, though, it always boils down to this: when you get into a game system, you face one of two possible eventual realities: either one day they're going to publish a new edition or they're going to discontinue the line. No major game at HERO's level has ever been able to get away with publishing a 'final edition' of the game and realistically maintaining it and themselves as a company forever through supplements only. And when faced with a new version of HERO or the end of HERO all together, which one would you choose?

Personally, I'll go with a new version of HERO.

[Akiva]

Also, I want to add that I wish that I had another year with the HERO system before these discussions started up. I've got experience in this sort of thing and have helped with new editions of Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth (which, sadly, never got anywhere) and Rolemaster (which, sadly, has been delayed until 2010 or later). Unfortunately, I am simply not confident enough with HERO yet to be of any real assistance here at all. I'll probably have to sit this round out.

Ah, well. I'll stick around for the 7th Edition discussions in 2015.

Heh heh heh.

[Chris Goodwin]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.

[Akiva]

And, as far as I can tell, I don't think all of our 5th edition books are going to suddenly burst into flames the moment 6th edition hits the shelves. Sure, you can argue that, with 6th edition, support for 5th effectively ends but isn't it also argued that one of the best features of HERO is that you don't need anything other than the main rulebook to play? I can kind of understand the supplement argument with other systems where those supplements are required to even play the game (try playing a lengthy GURPS 3e fantasy campaign with the core rulebook only) but with HERO? Sure, the HERO supplements are all helpful but they are not required.

Furthermore, considering the kind of publisher that DoJ is, I'd be surprised if we don't see some kind of conversion book that will keep most of the 5th edition supplements useful. Heck, maybe it'll even be published as a free PDF.

[Maur]

Well, even if they release a new edition, they can't force gamers to move to it once the gamers have copies of the previous edition. WOTC can't force gamers to change to 4th Ed and I don't think they can stop publishers from continuing to publish content under the OGL for v3/3.5. Same with HERO. People still play 4th Ed even though 5th is out. Why would you stop playing 5th just because 6th is out?

[Chris Goodwin]

And, as far as I can tell, I don't think all of our 5th edition books are going to suddenly burst into flames the moment 6th edition hits the shelves. Sure, you can argue that, with 6th edition, support for 5th effectively ends but isn't it also argued that one of the best features of HERO is that you don't need anything other than the main rulebook to play? I can kind of understand the supplement argument with other systems where those supplements are required to even play the game (try playing a lengthy GURPS 3e fantasy campaign with the core rulebook only) but with HERO? Sure, the HERO supplements are all helpful but they are not required.

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.

Well, even if they release a new edition, they can't force gamers to move to it once the gamers have copies of the previous edition. WOTC can't force gamers to change to 4th Ed and I don't think they can stop publishers from continuing to publish content under the OGL for v3/3.5. Same with HERO. People still play 4th Ed even though 5th is out. Why would you stop playing 5th just because 6th is out?

See above. New players will be playing 6th. Harder to get someone who has just bought a shiny new 6th edition book to play in your 5er game. Easier to give the guy with $1000 worth of 5e books on his shelf a reason to buy into 6th, and let him keep using those books.

[Simon]

No, but you end up with new people effectively speaking a different language, and a harder time finding players for your favorite version of the game.

Like it or not, helping people's investments in books keep their value can be a valid reason for minimizing forward incompatibility.

Errr...but weren't you just saying earlier how you still play 3rd edition materials in 5th? So the terminology and even the rules have not changed that much.

Why do people seem to immediately jump to the worst-possible-case scenario in their heads without any information to back it up and run with it as the gods-given truth?

Why would 6th suddenly be a radical departure from the core rules? Why indeed when Steve has said that this is not his intent? Given this, and your previously stated ability to still use materials from several editions ago (if you count 5ER as a new edition), why the sudden belief that when 6th comes out everyone will be speaking a different language and none of your 5th edition (or even 4th/3rd) materials will be usable?

[Chris Goodwin]

Errr...but weren't you just saying earlier how you still play 3rd edition materials in 5th? So the terminology and even the rules have not changed that much.

Yes, and recall I said they didn't change that much between third and fifth.

Why would 6th suddenly be a radical departure from the core rules? Why indeed when Steve has said that this is not his intent? Given this, and your previously stated ability to still use materials from several editions ago (if you count 5ER as a new edition), why the sudden belief that when 6th comes out everyone will be speaking a different language and none of your 5th edition (or even 4th/3rd) materials will be usable?

A lot of proposals have been floated, some of them pretty radical. It's easy to look at those in the aggregate and think that the sky may be preparing to fall. Perhaps we won't be seeing all of them in the final product, but we're seeing all of them in the discussion stage, and it's hard to separate them. We don't know at this point which ones will make the final cut.

[Simon]

Yes, and recall I said they didn't change that much between third and fifth.



A lot of proposals have been floated, some of them pretty radical. It's easy to look at those in the aggregate and think that the sky may be preparing to fall. Perhaps we won't be seeing all of them in the final product, but we're seeing all of them in the discussion stage, and it's hard to separate them. We don't know at this point which ones will make the final cut.

Please take this in the spirit it's intended (a completely straight question with no outside implications): were you around for the discussion of 5th?

The exact same process went on.

Look to Steve's initial statements about his goals for 6th. If you need an idea of where things are going to go with the new edition, listening to what the Line Developer wants to do with it and what level of changes he's looking at are a pretty good place to start (note: not ideas that he's posting for input about, but the general direction and concepts that he posted in the top threads of this forum)

I've seen a truly ridiculous amount of wild speculation and hand-wringing over this announcement.....without much in the way of any solid backing. Those folks that are reading over what Steve's intentions are and where he's looking to take things for 6th seem to all be saying that it's looking very promising.

You yourself have said that your past experience has shown very little change between even two major revisions of the rules. I ask again, why would you suddenly jump to the conclusion that this pattern will cease and 6th will be a completely different system with completely different terminology, rules, and mechanics. When the guy behind it all has pretty much stated that this will not be the case?

Wouldn't it make more sense to go with "this will likely be very similar to past version updates" than "this will be unlike anything we have ever seen before -- Steve has given into greed and sold us all out" ?

[Thia Halmades]

Again, the more I'm reading this, and the more I look at the history, the more I'm asking myself: "Really, are we going to change that much? Really?"

I doubt it. The core of HERO is clearly intended to be kept; this isn't Fuzion, and it isn't d20, and while everyone is going "Oh noes! GURPZ 4.0!!@#!!~!@eleven!!" I'm going "Well, we had 5th... and I came in at 5th Revised and I've purchased at least 500 in books since then, and I own Robot Warriors (3rd Ed) and I've used it. I can't imagine a world where my materials are simply completely outdated, for example, from D&D 2nd Edition to 3rd Edition."

I've been advocating the same basic stance and I'll stick to it until proven otherwise:

1. This is inevitable, and if it's good for the company, and the company gets more money to publish more books, that's good for me, the consumer.

2. I'd like to see the rules refined and clarified anyway, and even though not a thing I say may make it into the new system, I'll at least know that my opinion is valued and that I made an effort to contribute.

3. I play Heroic level games, and this is a great opportunity to put in what I've wanted the whole time, which is a clearer delineation between Heroic & Super-Heroic.

4. I agree with Court-Fool; everyone should have access to the rules and be able to build whatever they want. The purpose of HERO is to be a tool kit by which you build an Engine. I think, also, that HERO should lay down "core guidelines" in terms of consistency with armor, damage, and scale. Then Chris has what he wants; people can get to the fun very easily. And Court-Fool has what he wants; we can make our fun by investing the work. And I have what I think is best: A game that anyone can get into inside of a few hours, but can take years to master and get the nuances of.

Here's my unnerving thought for the day: "I'm agreeing with Simon. The apocalypse IS coming." OH! OH! Dan, while I'm thinking about it -- will HDv4 (6.0 compliance) launch at the same time as 6th Edition?! Ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease?!

[Chris Goodwin]

Please take this in the spirit it's intended (a completely straight question with no outside implications): were you around for the discussion of 5th?

In fact, I was. Emailed Steve my questionnaire and everything. I'd like to think I'm the reason Aid is 10 points per die and Healing works the way it does. (Anyone who wants to aim brickbats my way for that can feel free, now.)

Look to Steve's initial statements about his goals for 6th. If you need an idea of where things are going to go with the new edition, listening to what the Line Developer wants to do with it and what level of changes he's looking at are a pretty good place to start (note: not ideas that he's posting for input about, but the general direction and concepts that he posted in the top threads of this forum)

I've seen a truly ridiculous amount of wild speculation and hand-wringing over this announcement.....without much in the way of any solid backing. Those folks that are reading over what Steve's intentions are and where he's looking to take things for 6th seem to all be saying that it's looking very promising.

You yourself have said that your past experience has shown very little change between even two major revisions of the rules. I ask again, why would you suddenly jump to the conclusion that this pattern will cease and 6th will be a completely different system with completely different terminology, rules, and mechanics. When the guy behind it all has pretty much stated that this will not be the case?

Wouldn't it make more sense to go with "this will likely be very similar to past version updates" than "this will be unlike anything we have ever seen before -- Steve has given into greed and sold us all out" ?

Well, it would make more sense to assume there won't be radical changes. But:

We have six years more experience at the job of writing and designing RPGs than we did when 5E came out, and six years more experience at layout, presentation, marketing, and the like. When I wrote the 5E manuscript I had explicit instructions about what I could and could not change, regardless of my own personal feelings on the matter, and I stuck to those instructions. When we published 5E we decided to stay that course rather than have me go back and rework things from the beginning to be more in tune with what I would have preferred to do. Now I have the opportunity to re-examine the HERO System from the ground up and make any changes I think are necessary, regardless of how “radical” they might be.

and

1. Everything is up for consideration.

There are no sacred cows here, no forbidden ground, no boundaries limiting where I’m going to go in my quest to make the HERO System rules even better — and therefore no restrictions on what you can suggest to me.

Again, we don't have any way of knowing at this point what's going to be kept and what's going to be changed.

Edit: I'd like to think I'm not just being Chicken Little, and trying to dodge pieces of sky. I'm trying to bring up real concerns.