Why We're Creating The 6th Edition -- Please Read Before Posting

[Lucius]

We're at a point where we should think about the stuff that doesn't work in the core rules and should be dropped (like COM) and stuff that worked better in 4th Edition and needs to be changed back, as one example ditching Regeneration and reverse-engineering it as a subcategory of Healing, only using different mechanics and a more complicated writeup, on the rationale of "simplifying" the Powers list.

JG

Unfortunately, Steve Long has already ruled out moving "backwards" to 4th Edition ways of doing things on anything. That may be a mistake (in this case, I certainly think so) but it's also his mistake to make.

Lucius Alexander

Keeping a wary eye on the Palindromedary

[Enforcer84]

As you rightly mention later, specific rules arguments should go in the other threads, but in brief, if Steve carries through with his tentative plans to do away with figured characteristics then CON and BODY suddenly make a lot of sense to become one stat (hell, I'd argue you should do that now even if figureds stay the same).



I am. But even if I'm wrong, I'd take just two attack powers, or even three. I think this is a good example of an area that could use simplification, and the results don't affect Hero's ability to model anything. The current methodology to this, and several other things I go into elsewhere, are needlessly complex: we gain nothing by having it, and lose clarity and the all-important ease of teaching. Hero must gain new players, and cleanup helps this cause.



As above, I obviously imagine just one solution (a master framework) as the ideal situation, but the main goal is to keep Hero's power. As such, if it means we can "only" drop down to two frameworks, then that's still an improvement and I'm delighted.

Ultimately I want anything that makes sense to go, *without lessening Hero's flexibility*, to go, and anything that can be streamlined/clarified with the same caveat to be done as well. Stick to this guideline and almost no matter what is changed, you still have Hero, only leaner and meaner.

To Enforcer84:
Fuzion gained us simplicity, but cost us in raw modeling power - I couldn't do certain things anymore with it, which is definitely *not* what I want with 6th. Hero with just one or two attack powers and a stat removed and a few oddball Advantages folded into others is still Hero, not Fuzion II: Electric Boogaloo. I'm arguing for cleanup, not wholescale slash-and-burn revision.

Well I'll wait until it actually gels more before I discount FII:EB entirely. But otherwise, yeah.

[Silverbullet]

Guys look; I know there is a lot of trepidation right now. I, like a lot of you have been through the Big Blue Book, Fuzion, D&D 2nd Edition, D&D 3/ 3.5, and Gredo firing first (shudder.) Some decisions were great others, well…er…no. I loved getting D&D 3, and I was thrilled when Hero 5th edition finally came out after Fuzion and Cyber Games didn’t pan out.

I don’t care for the way D&D 4 is going but I reserve the right to change my opinion when I see it. I can’t say I’m not a little nervous about Hero 6th but I am also excited. From all that we have seen, I have no reason what so ever to believe that Steve and Darren would steer us wrong. The products they have put out over the last several years have, by and large, been great.

My point is (if there even is one), let’s all calm down. Steve got the Classic Cadillac; he’s going to do some body work and probably some upgrades but I don’t think for a second he’s going to go out and ram it into a tree…

(please forgive any spelling or grammar issues, It’s 3am and my allergies are killing me…)

[Gadodel]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.

But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

I like this sentiment.

I was on the Wizards Boards waaaaaaay too much when 3.0 was going to 3.5. Wow, now that was a lot of negativity. I found my way here and the level of civility was amazing. As if some Mod had megascale Mind Control and told everyone to be nice. But, of course; no such psionics was at work. Just a bunch of groovy folks talking about their favorite game. I hope that continues.

[ghost-angel]

I wil wait and see what develops and offer my opinions on it. I didn't think the Steve Long started this forum for people to blow sunshine up his skirt about 6th edition but for an open discussion about the proposal and what the fanbase on this forum feels about them. And one side getting shouted down and insulted for their opinions does not contribute to an open and meaningful discussion. If a proposed change makes a customer feel like dropping the product line. It's something the producers of that product should know about. It might not change their minds, of course, but I feel its important knowledge.

He didn't start it to "blow sunshine up his skirt" - he started to discuss RULES.

Complain about 6E all you want - in another forum. There's a thread in the Company Questions Forum that's all about that.

Here - we discuss what we would like to see changed, and unchanged because It Is Coming. Positively.

[McCoy]

To all of you who are making these knee-jerk threats about quitting HERO if 6E is published, what are you expecting? Are you really expecting Steve to see these threats and say, 'Oh my golly gosh! I certainly didn't mean to offend your delicate sensibilities! Tell you what, let's pretend that none of this silly talk about 6E ever happened. Would you like some milk and cookies now?'

It always tickles me to no end when people think that their personal opinions carry such a great weight with anyone other than themselves especially when they think this kind of negative talk will somehow influence anything or anyone. It's like people who get bad service at Applebee's running around shouting about how they're starting a one-person boycott and never eating there again. Last I checked, Applebee's is doing just fine.

I don't mean to be harsh here but, seriously, if that's your attitude, see ya. I absolutely cannot stand this pervasive sense of self-entitlement that so many people seem to have.

If Steve just gets rid of hexes and inches for meters, that's enough for me to buy 6E. If he gets rid of Superheroes, I'll buy two.

You obviously have never owned your own business.

A single disgruntled customer, in and of themselves, is no great loss. But for every person who speaks up, there are some ten to a hundred who silently take their business elsewhere.

Right now the RPG industry, like comic books, is dealing with a shrinking, ageing customer base. Trying to expand that customer base is good business sense. However, offending the existing customer base on the chance of attracting a new customer base is gambling. Could win big. Could lose big.

I, and a lot of people, are taking a "wait and see" attitude. If this change is an improvement, we will continue, buying the new rules and probably two to three books a year. If the new rules are changes for the sake of change and making the existing products not compatatable with the new rules, then a lot of us will pick up any 5th ed stuff we don't have at the close-out sale then go our own way.

By the way, if the reason for this change is "To take advantage of the opportunities presented by the release of the CHAMPIONS ONLINE MMORPG," if we are trying to bring in a new customer base from their exposure to a Superhero game, doesn't this seem like the time to embrace our superhero roots rather than try to distance ourselves from them?

[nexus]

He didn't start it to "blow sunshine up his skirt" - he started to discuss RULES.

And saying that you don't like those rules or don't want some rules changed IS discussing them. People give reasons for the negatives as well as the positives and there's not reason to shut them down because of their opinions aren't "positive".

Complain about 6E all you want - in another forum. There's a thread in the Company Questions Forum that's all about that.

Here - we discuss what we would like to see changed, and unchanged because It Is Coming. Positively.

And how is saying what you don't want changed not following these guidelines? Hero is not a religion. There are no heretics and I haven't seen all these people just "complaining" without merit. I'm frankly, not that impressed with suggested changes and I have said why. It seems a reasonable assumption that if someone says "If this is changed I probably won't buy the 6ed" is a pretty good indicator that they have a problem with that particular change. I haven't seen many posts that say If DOJ does 6ed at all I'm taking my ball and going home.

"I feel the speed chart is an integral part of what makes Hero System Hero and if it's dropped I probably won't purchase 6th edition products" isn't "complaining about 6th ed" Its stating a preference for what should NOT be changed in said edition and the strength of your conviction about it. Dismissing it as self important whining and unmerited sense of entitlement serves not purpose except to dismiss that person's opinion.

And I'll assume you're using a general "you" in your posts. "I" as in me Nexus have been following this forum since the beginning. I was one of the first to post and I've tried back up my opinions with reasons. I do think "I don't want this" is just a valid as "I do".

[Simon]

In an effort to head off the increasing enmity going on here (on both sides), let's keep a few things in mind:

1. Keep it constructive. It is absolutely fine to disagree with an idea or to think that a particular rule or option or new idea is a "bad thing". It is quite another to say things along the line of "I absolutely will not go to a new edition of the rules. Change is teh suxX0rS! I quit!" It is likewise not terribly constructive to say things like "Anyone who disagrees with any change posited is wrong and should be silenced!"

People will disagree. That's fine. Keep it civil and avoid threats. Threatening to leave the system will not help anyone (least of all you).

2. Keep it civil. Discuss the rules. Do not attack each other. When you take the discussion from the topic at hand to your fellow posters, you will find yourself on the infracting end of the moderation team.

3. Keep it on-topic. This is a place to discuss possible changes and enhancements for the 6th edition rules. The 6th edition rules will be happening. Yes, it is change. No, it is not the end of the world. See topics 1 & 2. Understand them. Embrace them. And post on-topic in the given thread of your choice.

[steamteck]

Steve's Rules For This Forum:
7. Sarcasm, cynicism, and snideness are not appropriate. If you can’t participate in this discussion without some optimism, some respect, some diplomacy, or at least the ability to keep your negative personality traits to yourself, you’re not going to be allowed to keep taking part. This needs to be a constructive dialogue, not a destructive one.


So - to be stunningly blunt - yes you should.

Contribute something, a suggestion, and idea, discussion on other suggestions or ideas. Even a "No, I don't like that, I like this" is better than negativity.


But just complaining? Take it somewhere else, please.

Except nexus has presented plenty of suggestions and reasons for maintaining the things he likes. Nexus contribution to threads I'm reading has actually been more than yours which is pretty unusual. Nexus and I particularly in characteristics have come up with well thought out arguments for some of the same issues.

Wow! Thats really not like the you I've seen posting before. Give some of this to the folks who don't just disagree with someone but claimed they posted nothing after they post an argument.

[CourtFool]

What a funny sheep. You and the Llama should travel the world solving crimes or something.

What you got against me Enforcer84? I never suggested pulling supers out of Hero.

[Silbeg]

Because some people have spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars on books that they don't want to see be made useless.

I don't want to see any more changes made between fifth and sixth than were made between fourth and fifth, or third and fourth.

I can still, with minor tweaks, use materials released for third edition with 5e. If I can't do that with sixth edition, I'm a lot less likely to want to get into it.

I would have to agree with all of that. 100%

I am also one of the many that has cut back on the gaming dollar. I will say that I was rather surprised at the announcement (in the sinking feeling in the pit of one's stomach type of surprise), but I do understand why this would be happening.

I also know that in all practicality, if there are major changes to the system, a good portion of all of the tasty books I own will become obsolete. Yes, I can handle the conversion (I still use some of the old 3E and 4E sourcebooks), but in these days of my adulthood, I just don't have the time to spend on it all that I once did.

I do expect that eventually I will be getting the 6E book, but...

[Lord Mhoram]

To further the explanation, for myself, and echoing some of the comments by Chris and Silbeg - And I don't consider this negative, but honest.

I think that a lot of the worry and trepidation by those of us unsure about 6th stems from this fact:

From 1st to 3rd the rules hardly changed. The differences between those editions were as small as the variances you find between groups. 4th was a change, but it was mostly additive - adding in the cool bits from the non Champions games to make the Hero rules. Some changes to frameworks (such as not letting specific powers in an EC), changes to range mods, but in general it didn't have much more impact on the game than what a splatbook might in another game system. 5th came along, and again there wasn't much in the way of change - a few powers got shuffled around, and recosted, ECs were further limited, and again the changes were not much different that a second splatbook.

The writing and presentation changed, but not a huge amount. Characteristics cost the same, frameworks were the same, most powers were the same with added abilities.

From 1st to 5th it was, minor differences aside the same game.

Now 6th is announced with "No sacred cows" and "Rebuilding from the ground up" things that are defining elements to the system are up for discussion - the Speed Chart, Figured Characteristics, cost of Characteristics and others.

To me (and I suspect to many others) that would, in effect be a new game that is based on/inspired by the Hero system (like Gurps or M&M).

I don't want to play a new game. I want to play the same game I have been playing since '85.

By analogy when D&D third came out - it wasn't the same game as previous editions. In my mind it was a better game, but it was a different one. What I am really worried (personally) is that is what will happen to 6th - a different game will come out. Because the state of the game industry, and what most players want is something that would be a different game. DOJ doing what I fear just might be the best business decision - and if it is, I want them to make it. I want to see them succeed, I just expect to be left behind when they do.

Because I want to play the same game, not a new one.


Edit: And even if I don't move to 6th, I figure I will be buying some sourcebooks (Regency Hero, Horror Hero) and use them with my 5th ed game. I do that with D&D books for my FH game, and M&M books for my Champions game. No reason not to with 6th ed books.

[Thia Halmades]

I submit that 99% of the point of saying "No Sacred Cows" is to keep people from feeling inhibited. Have something you've ALWAYS hated? Now's the time to bring it up, because Steve is listening to everything. I would argue this is the closest you'll ever find to a fan-constructed game that doesn't suffer from being done by committee. We all know Steve loves HERO. He really does. And I choose to believe, since I have no reason to believe otherwise, that he's going to do right by it and US, the FANS. Otherwise, it's a crappy product.

Since 6th isn't the same engine being used to run the Champions MMO, that means that the rules set needs to appeal to us (core users) and be presented in an appealing manner to the new cats (same art, etc.). I'm still not seeing a down side here. Lots of panic! Not a lot of "here's my evidence that says we're screwed."

No sacred cows doesn't mean we're screwed. It means Steve is listening.

[Lord Mhoram]

No sacred cows doesn't mean we're screwed. It means Steve is listening.

I can see that. But it still makes me mighty nervous.

[CourtFool]

Exactly. No sacred cows means I am listening, not I am listening and I am going to implement every damn fool idea the llama presents.