The SPD chart

[Chris Goodwin]

I've noticed discussions on the SPD chart appearing all over the place, mainly because it has quite a few effects throughout the system. I'm thinking it may be best to break out SPD chart discussions into its own thread. If the Powers That Be disagree, we can close the thread with no hard feelings on my part.

[Thia Halmades]

I've noticed discussions on the SPD chart appearing all over the place, mainly because it has quite a few effects throughout the system. I'm thinking it may be best to break out SPD chart discussions into its own thread. If the Powers That Be disagree, we can close the thread with no hard feelings on my part.

I am pro SPD chart, so other than "Keep it!" I don't have much to say on the topic. But I think Steve mentioned it in another thread.

[Tonio]

I think some tweaks are in order, although whether to the speed chart itself or whether to some of the mechanics that surround it, I'm not sure. Specifically, the fact that the Block maneuver lends itself to speed chart metagaming (the maneuver is unexpectedly more useful if by some accident of the speed chart, the two combatants' next Phase occurs in the same Segment).

Also, the fact that higher SPD characters are, at times, either at a slight disadvantage or forced to Hold Actions is odd.

[CourtFool]

The Speed chart was one of the reasons I originally converted to Hero. Finally, someone who was faster than everyone else got their due. And having terrible luck at dice, I no longer had to rely on them to take advantage with my speedster.

Over the years, I have seen the gap between SPD of different characters close. No one wants to be the SPD 2 Brick when even the Mystic has a SPD 6. I am sure someone will provide anecdotal evidence to the contrary. It seems to me that combat flows smoother when everyone gets one turn. Realistic? No. But it keeps everyone at the table invested equally.

I could go either way with the Speed chart. I lean towards removing it.

[BigJackBrass]

There were several complaints on RPGnet about the perceived complexity of gaming terms in HERO, many of which I disagreed with. One thing did come to mind, though: I can't think of a good reason why, in a twelve second turn, segments aren't just called seconds. When I first bought Champions I recall getting surprisingly confused between segments and phases, so having seconds and phases seems a little more straightforward.

Of course, now I don't actually need the terminology changing but it's clearly a concern for some potential players (or fodder for some loud critics.) On the whole I rather like the Speed Chart. Must be the old Car Wars player in me

[Derek Hiemforth]

I think the concept of SPD (that certain characters will have more actions within a given span of time than other characters) is a central concept of the game, and I'd be opposed to removing it.

I'm less wedded to the Speed Chart as the specific implementation of that concept. I use the Speed Chart in my games, and I like it fine, but would also be open to other ways of doing the SPD idea.

The "problem" most people seem to have with the Speed Chart is its predictability. And I can see what they mean... it can lead to some odd "gaming the system" moments, where players do things like having their character Haymaker on Phases where they know the target doesn't have an action in the next Segment, and not using Haymaker when they know the target does have an action in the next Segment, etc.

However, the suggestions I've seen in the past for eliminating the predictability (such as rolling 1d12 each Segment, and if you roll your SPD or lower, you get an action) bring a different problem. Namely, it makes both teamwork and moving very odd. It's hard to coordinate with a teammate when you have no idea when that teammate will get an action, and having huge gaps of non-movement between moves gets very weird. (Weirder than Segmented Movement already is. )

[Sean Waters]

I've suggested this before, and it is freely adapted from the Deadlands game, but here it is again: one option for randomising the speed chart is you take a pack of cards, with the Kings and Jokers stripped out. Each new turn everyone is dealt a number of cards equal to their speed, and the face value of the cards shows the segments (seconds?) you can take phases on (Ace is 1, Jack is 11, Queen is 12). If you want you can leave the Kings and Jokers in: a King is a phase you can take whenever you like in a turn (except on a phase when you have already acted) and a Joker allows either 2 extra cards (i.e. +1 SPD) OR a phase whenever you like INCLUDING on a phase when you have already acted OR whatever other goodie you want to allow.

Something I've personally done, almost forever, is extra SPD with an activation roll: check activation PS12, and you are whatever speed you roll for the next turn. It randomises SPD whilst retaining the current structure and remains within the existing rule framework. SPD 4, +1 SPD 14-, +1 SPD 11-: you (in any given turn) act on SPD 4, 5 or 6 depending on your activation rolls.

Either or both could be used to reduce predictability witout actually overturning the applecart.

The problem with removing the SPD chart is that it has quite an impact on recoveries and such: you have to decide when effects like REC and regeneration take place. The easiest way is simply to build all characters to SPD 4 (or whatever) and so DEX determines action order, and everyone is on an equal footing. Again, this does not require the removal of the SPD chart.

[Lord Mhoram]

I think the speed chart is one of the cornerstone of the system, and I think it should have no changes.

As for predictability - that is what holding actions and such things are for. I've run a group of speed 4 agents who never moved on the same phases, and completely flummoxed my players.

[Lord Mhoram]

Something I've personally done, almost forever, is extra SPD with an activation roll:

I use that one, but as another thing - it's a great SFX for a speedster or martial artists trying for speed training. Sometimes they get faster sometimes they don't.

[sbarron]

I'm all for keeping the SPD chart. However, I'm not averse to having the manuevers and elements that allow the SPD chart to be manipulated being removed. Haymaker taking an extra segment being one, segments and phases and all the nuances therein being others. Just remove all the crap that ties into the SPD chart itself.

Like say, Haymaker doesn't take extra time, it just reduces your OCV and DCV, or something like that.

[MarkusDark]

I am also for keeping the speed chart as it is one of the things I loved about the game system. I don't like the idea of adding cards or other items to the tabletop game. I feel that the haymaker is something that could actually go by the wayside as it is just a '20 point push' that doesn't have a high end cost. Although I'll admit that I have often abused the system such as delaying an attack until a high DCV character has moved so that I can hit him with a weak single hex entangle and then smacking him before he goes again.

[buzz]

Whether one needs to remove the SPD chart wholesale or not, improvements need to be made. The simple fact that there's as much divisiveness as there is seems evidence that the mechanic could work better than it currently does.

[Captain Obvious]

I think some tweaks are in order, although whether to the speed chart itself or whether to some of the mechanics that surround it, I'm not sure. Specifically, the fact that the Block maneuver lends itself to speed chart metagaming (the maneuver is unexpectedly more useful if by some accident of the speed chart, the two combatants' next Phase occurs in the same Segment).

Also, the fact that higher SPD characters are, at times, either at a slight disadvantage or forced to Hold Actions is odd.

Maybe it's just because I've been playing Hero for so long, but I don't find Block to be unexpectedly more useful ever. At it's most basic level, you block this attack and go first next time. It makes sense.

EDIT: oh, and as far as changing the SPD chart, I'm agin it. Make options available for those who don't like it, but IMO it's one of the things that sets Hero above all other gaming systems.

[archermoo]

I have never seen a proposed improvement to the Speed Chart that does not in my opinion degrade gameplay. Generally quite seriously. As I've said in other threads, I consider it to be so central to the concept of the HERO System that I don't know that I would really consider anything that didn't include it to actually be HERO. I'd either stick with 5th, or just add the Speed Chart back into 6th for any games I run and just not play in any games that didn't use it.

I've used a card system similar to the one that Sean discusses that a friend of mine came up with. In my opinion it was a dismal failure. I stopped playing the game after a couple of sessions, and only lasted past the first combat because I liked gaming with the people in the group. A different friend tinkered around with the D12 method that Derek mentioned, but fortunately that one never even made it to the playtesting stage.

[archermoo]

Maybe it's just because I've been playing Hero for so long, but I don't find Block to be unexpectedly more useful ever. At it's most basic level, you block this attack and go first next time. It makes sense.

True, very simple. But you only go first next if you and the person you blocked both have your next Phase in the same Segment.