SPD as a Primary Characteristic

[Blue]

Now I posted something on this already in the "Characteristics" section, but with as hot and heavy as things come through there I have no idea if it will ever be read. It's entirely possible also that everyone read it and said, "that's crazy" and just ignored it.

So I'm going to repeat my suggestion once and then leave it.


Make SPD a primary stat. Leave it at 10 points, give it a base of 1 or 2. What this does is it puts characters who are mentalists and regular physical combatants on the same level, as they're both having to buy their SPD seperate from their attacking characterstics (DEX and EGO).

Drop the cost of DEX to 2pts. Now that it's divorced from SPD it's slightly less valuable, and the function of it is nearly identical to EGO.

Use the Optional Rule for using EGO as an alternate for determining attack order. Mentalists and Martial Artists are now performing their actions in order based on the relevant stat for their action.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of Regeneration as a seperate power.

[Pattern Ghost]

That's crazy.

Good crazy, though.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Steve is already leaning toward #1.

I disagree regarding #2. I'd leave the cost of DEX at 3, largely because I think DEX is too cheap now for what it provides, and leaving it at 3 after SPD is divorced from it would make the cost better balanced, IMO. In your comparison of DEX and EGO, you're not noting that DEX affects many Skills, while EGO does not.

I agree regarding #3, and plan to lobby Steve hard for that particular item.

[Sean Waters]

Hmm. If we are not dropping INT as a characteristic entirely I'd rather see it, as opposed to EGO, determining mental attack order. I just don't see EGO as a particularly quickness dependent characteristic.

[Tonio]

And mebbe have INT determine ECV, too? Could provide for "mental bricks" who are slow and easy to avoid, but strong (low INT, high EGO).

[steamteck]

Hmm. If we are not dropping INT as a characteristic entirely I'd rather see it, as opposed to EGO, determining mental attack order. I just don't see EGO as a particularly quickness dependent characteristic.

Yes, I've been saying that forever. EGO makes no sense for mental speed , its mental STR!

[JmOz]

I have to admit I kind of like Int being the Mental Dex, while Ego remains the Mental Str/Con/Body

[Kdansky]

Complete agreement from me to make INT the mental DEX. That way, INT also becomes more interesting than just the "all skills +1 for 5 points" + PER it is now.

[Vondy]

Hmm. If we are not dropping INT as a characteristic entirely I'd rather see it, as opposed to EGO, determining mental attack order. I just don't see EGO as a particularly quickness dependent characteristic.

The idea of using ego as an "initiative stat" came from the fourth edition ultimate mentalist, which was attempting to model mentalists speed-of-thought reflexes in many comic books. Since mentalists are measured by ego (force of mind) more than intelligence in comics that was deemed to be the appropriate stat. That may not work for other genres, but it could also be said to model coolness under fire. While presence is the normal characteristic for that, its hard coded into the rules that you can substitute ego for that function. Thus, soldiers with iron nerves who don't flinch in the face of withering fire might be said to be operating on ego rather than presence. At the same time, we currently model INT on the notion of how fast someone processes information. That may or may not equate to how quickly you react to that information under fire, depending on your point of view. I have known some very bright people, however, who froze up under fire. I'm not sure its an absolute metric. I would, however, use it to determine how quick someone was able to place their opponents while taking snap shots and calculate shots fired during combat and the like. Personally, I'm not sold on INT as an "initiative stat," though I do understand the thinking behind it.

[JmOz]

The idea of using ego as an "initiative stat" came from the fourth edition ultimate mentalist, which was attempting to model mentalists speed-of-thought reflexes in many comic books. Since mentalists are measured by ego (force of mind) more than intelligence in comics that was deemed to be the appropriate stat. That may not work for other genres, but it could also be said to model coolness under fire. While presence is the normal characteristic for that, its hard coded into the rules that you can substitute ego for that function. Thus, soldiers with iron nerves who don't flinch in the face of withering fire might be said to be operating on ego rather than presence. At the same time, we currently model INT on the notion of how fast someone processes information. That may or may not equate to how quickly you react to that information under fire, depending on your point of view. I have known some very bright people, however, who froze up under fire. I'm not sure its an absolute metric. I would, however, use it to determine how quick someone was able to place their opponents while taking snap shots and calculate shots fired during combat and the like. Personally, I'm not sold on INT as an "initiative stat," though I do understand the thinking behind it.

It's in my copy of 4th edition champions...

[buzz]

Make SPD a primary stat.

Agree 200%. Granted, Steve already seems to be leaning towards ditching Figured Characteristics (the "Figured" part, that is). Amen to that.

[JohnTaber]

Steve is already leaning toward #1.

I disagree regarding #2. I'd leave the cost of DEX at 3, largely because I think DEX is too cheap now for what it provides, and leaving it at 3 after SPD is divorced from it would make the cost better balanced, IMO. In your comparison of DEX and EGO, you're not noting that DEX affects many Skills, while EGO does not.

I agree regarding #3, and plan to lobby Steve hard for that particular item.

100% agree. Will rep if possible.

[SteveZilla]

I have to admit I kind of like Int being the Mental Dex, while Ego remains the Mental Str/Con/Body

I had that idea as well. I wondered if in addition to that, if we could actually *use* EGO as mental STR and make Ego Blast actually be *based* upon how much EGO the character has. It never made much sense to me for a 10 EGO character to do 6d6 Ego Blasts.

I also wondered if we could seperate the "I go on my DEX/EGO" ability from them and make it it's own stat -- possibly a Figured Characteristic based upon both DEX & (IMO) INT. This would eliminating the dichotomy: "If I Run then Ego Blast I go on 18, but if I just stand here and Ego Blast, I go on 28?"

[Diamond_J]

Hmm. If we are not dropping INT as a characteristic entirely I'd rather see it, as opposed to EGO, determining mental attack order. I just don't see EGO as a particularly quickness dependent characteristic.

I believe dropping INT would be a bad idea. If anything I'd like to see more of a balance between physical and mental stats. Drop CON. You don't need CON and BODY which are to close to the same thing. I say the results of becoming stunned should be based off the greatest of EGO or BODY. If the secondary stats are divorced from the primary this works if not it needs more fleshing out. Also having INT determine initiative makes some sense, but only as an either DEX or INT. Only because the stat is often defined in system terms as the quickness characters think at.

[Diamond_J]

I had that idea as well. I wondered if in addition to that, if we could actually *use* EGO as mental STR and make Ego Blast actually be *based* upon how much EGO the character has. It never made much sense to me for a 10 EGO character to do 6d6 Ego Blasts.

I also wondered if we could seperate the "I go on my DEX/EGO" ability from them and make it it's own stat -- possibly a Figured Characteristic based upon both DEX & (IMO) INT. This would eliminating the dichotomy: "If I Run then Ego Blast I go on 18, but if I just stand here and Ego Blast, I go on 28?"

Sure I've got no real problem with that. IF a mentalist wants to be faster with there mind they can always buy the Talent to do so (name escapes me). It also divorces speed and coordination slightly which I'm all for.