What rpg.net is saying about 6th edition

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's the summary of page 13...

There is more math in Hero than in just about any other mainstream RPG, d20 included. Not harder math (except maybe the fractions in chargen), just more of it. A lot of it is in the way it's presented in the books... but yeah, it's a flaw if you care about making the game accessible to people who don't want to do a lot of math when they play a game.

As I wrote in the previous summary, if there is an increased complexity, some notes regarding why would be interesting.

I read an rpg book once (can’t remember which) that had small notes regarding the design philosophy behind “rule this ‘n rule that”. The same thing might be worth considering for Hero System?

Even if it only looks like more math than it really is, that's a flaw that should be addressed. Complexity is not an inherently bad thing in an RPG, but unnecessary complexity is.

I agree with him.

Something funny that always hits me when people complain about the numbers and the math, is that they don't have to do all the math. If you want prebuilt powers, special abilities, spells, whathaveyou, just get a copy of the genre books, or the Superpowers Databases, the Grimoires, or the Ultimate books. There are virtually hundreds or prebuilt powers and abilities all there for you, all you have to do is pick some, make sure they fit the power level, and write them down. Add up your points, and Voila! finished character. The rest of the so called 'algebra' can be dealt with during combat, or even before combat. Add up all your combat values and have them ready, like D&D, and you won't have to do all that adding and subtracting in your head.

Simple.
jak

Good point, but remember that wasn't always so, nor does the big, intimidating default rulebook make that a clear option on its own.

I wrote it in a previous summary; encourage the use of pre-made powers.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's the summary for page 14...

If we're talking about generic rulebooks, I'd rather buy one moderately sized book than one big book. If the book has so many rules that it needs to be the size of a phonebook, then either it (a) has too many rules for me (and lots of other folks) to want to play the game, or (b) the rules are presented in a bloated and inaccessible fashion.

(Note that I think Hero 5er is more a case of (b) than (a).)

The size (and numbers of) core books for the system is talked about elsewhere.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here's the summary of page 15...

Secondly, I'd need time: time to make characters, time to set up scenarios, time to run the lengthy combats.

One thing I envy d20 players in is all the free downloadable games available on the official D&D page. One these boards there are over 1000 members, yet there is only one uploaded game from a non-hero games author.

Maybe Hero Games should consider starting some kind of upload site for home-brew adventures?

Thirdly, I'd need people locally who are willing to deal with the complexities of the Hero system. One can apologize for the system all one wants, but the bottom line is that character creation is still one of the most math intensive and time consuming processes in any game I've played. Moreso even than Mutants and Masterminds or GURPS.

Sidekick helped a lot here (I think so myself), and hopefully will “Sidekick 2” be even better at it will all the feedback from the first version.

Call it ancedotal, but the players I have are not willing to deal with the Hero system, even the ones who have played Hero before. This I attrribute to the fact that it's still very much an early 1980's game, where the design philosophy was "more detail, more complexity, equals more better". The sad thing is, I don't know how to change that without altering the game beyond recognition.

I’d said it before, and I say it again, presentation means more than one might think.

[fredrik_nilsson]

Here are the summary for the 16 (and final) page…

I have not been on the Hero boards in years. I few years ago I spent a lot of time on the boards doing playtesting and helping with Hero Designer 1E. Then, through a RPG list I am a member of, I learned about how Hero Games was treating its freelance employees and lost respect for the company and stopped buying their products.

I don’t want to turn this thread into a discussion regarding the truth of the statement. I just want to say that it’s hard to gain customers but easy to lose them. Just ask Palladium’s Kevin Siemba.

If Hero make sixth edition the best book ever, but gain a reputation as this the book will still not sell.

I did return to the Hero boards briefly to answer an M&M question. I made the statement on the boards that I found Steve Long to be shortsighted in not making Power Skill more versatile in its inception. I was told by Simon that I had made a grievous insult and that I would apologize to Steve Long and the entire Hero community or be banned from the website. I gladly chose banning as I did not find my comment to be such a huge insult.

I haven’t read the thread that he referrers to, but assuming that he was constructive in the criticism as he claims I don’t see why Simon did as he did.

Yet again I don’t want start a discussion about if Hero Games acted right or not. I just want to point on the fact the Simon’s behavior made Hero Games lose a customer (you could probably add a few friends of Black Mamba as lost customers as well) and the fact that Black Mamba didn’t keep the incident to himself probably stopped a few potential customers from becoming future customers.

My point is that the new edition will never become a hit if Hero Games see itself as standing above its customers. I know I would have bought way more Palladium Books if their company (and forum) management had worked in a different way.

With that said, I drop the topic.

• Do not get rid of the multiplicative modifiers: BESM and M&M both use additive, but it results in a wonkier balance, as your advantages don't scale with the power level.
• Do not get rid of the speed chart: it's the one thing that I think makes HERO "unique". There are other Effects based systems (BESM and M&M) out there, but not really any with deterministic initiative including more actions for faster characters.
• Do expand the Power Skill description, giving it some actual mechanics. I'm not fond of "you pay points to do stuff" in an Effects-based system (BESM Dynamic Powers are the worst case of this >_<)
• Do do more to unify Characteristics/Skills/Talents/Perks/Powers into one thing. Yes, I know they're build from the same pool of points, but conceptually they should be the same unit. This necessitates getting rid of the figured part of the figured characteristics, I think.
• Do unify HKA, HA, EB, and RKA into an "Attack" power, with advantages to turn them into the other powers. They are, in my opinion, conceptually the same thing.

All these topics have been mentioned elsewhere.

1. Create a line of genre specific games that includes the rules and setting in under 128 pages or so. (Champions 1e/2e is maybe 60 pages and it covers the whole super hero genre.)
2. Call this line <Genre>: A Streamlined Hero's Game. e.g. Champions Streamlined: A Streamlined Hero's Game.
3. Reduce the stats to 6. I really do not care that there is a difference between CON and BOD. Give me a Toughness stat that handles constitution, hardiness, endurance, toughness, etc.. Offer a Power that makes someone healthier or hardier or has greater endurance.
4. Do not have Power Advantages and Disadadvantages. Have powers prebuilt. For 50 points you can get a 10d6 Energy Blast or a 5d6 Energy Blast with Armor Piercing or a 3d6 Killing Energy Blast.
5. Get rid of the active and real costs.
6. Get rid of endurance. Make using endurance a disadvantage for the character concept. Electroman can shoot energy bolts all day; Wannabe Electroman uses a charged ring to shoot energy bolts and may only shoot 10 before it needs a recharge.
7. Reduce the Speed segments from 12 to 3.
8. Offer it as a softcover for $14.95 or less. Make it a POD.
9. Do not provide maps or character sheets. Instead offer them for free as a download from the site. Drives traffic to the site to further sell other gear.
10 No need to provide every power to cover the breadth of every hero. Give me enough powers to create 6 different archetypal heroes. The point is not to be a completist but to offer a fun night of play.

The above would offer a "simpler" alternative to expand the base. They can maintain the toolkit of 6e for the true hero-philes.

Finally, here’s a list from the RPG.net thread to end the summary.

[Steve Long]

To the extent this thread was ever appropriate for these boards, I think it's long past the point of usefulness. Thankyew for your input.