The MISSING Philosophy

[Enforcer84]

Well, I think you are wrong when in comes to PnP game design.

I think there are basic ways in which any system can get in the way of player's enjoyment of the game.

Since HERO attempts to create a universal system for all genres that makes it more difficult than, say a re-design around Call of Cthulhu, or Vampire.

But if the players are not having fun with various aspects of character design, then you need to go after that. If players are not having fun waiting for a chance to do something, or if they are ineffectual -- those things are never fun.

I would also look at the most popular genres and their tropes (and Steve certainly understands those since his genre books are great) and ask is HERO modeling these successfully and easily. Could this be better?

Well then you're wrong. Fun is subjective. And being subjected to someone's idea of fun when it doesn't grok with your own is un-fun.

[Enforcer84]

Do not feed them if they are three, unliving, and in a baggie.

Rules to live by.



(unless there are two others like you and you occupy a baggie)

[Derek Hiemforth]

I've lately been calling 3rd edition and prior "first generation", because there were major changes between all of those books and 4e. I don't know that 5e was a generation shift from 4e, so I think we're coming up on the end of the second generation. 6e appears from here to be the next generation, for sure!

I agree with you about generations of the HERO System. I'd say 1E through 3E were the first generation, 4E and 5E were the second generation.

As for whether 6E will start a third generation, I think that's still an open question. I think some posters think Steve is likely to make way more changes (including way more radical changes) than I think he's likely to make. (Or, perhaps more accurately, they view some changes as radical that I see as cosmetic, like decoupling Figured Characteristics.)

But if I had to guess, I'd guess that 6E probably will, in hindsight, turn out to be the third generation. I don't think it's likely to be as radical a change from 5E as 4E was from 3E, though.

It's still a long way off. Much discussion and churning will occur before then.

[steamteck]

I agree with you about generations of the HERO System. I'd say 1E through 3E were the first generation, 4E and 5E were the second generation.

As for whether 6E will start a third generation, I think that's still an open question. I think some posters think Steve is likely to make way more changes (including way more radical changes) than I think he's likely to make. (Or, perhaps more accurately, they view some changes as radical that I see as cosmetic, like decoupling Figured Characteristics.)

But if I had to guess, I'd guess that 6E probably will, in hindsight, turn out to be the third generation. I don't think it's likely to be as radical a change from 5E as 4E was from 3E, though.

It's still a long way off. Much discussion and churning will occur before then.

I guess you're right about what people think is cosmetic or not. some of Steve's proposed changes seem pretty radical to me ( unless you measure them against the insane things proposed by some board members.

[Sean Waters]

Where is our Minister of Fun when we need him? Sean?

You'd probably be better off with Foxbat

[Sean Waters]

Here's my idea of fun: a system that you can use to realise whatever game you want to play. Hey, we are a good three quarters of the way there already

There are a couple of aspects to this though; first off, are we talking about a fun game experience? If so, there are a couple of aspects to that > fun rules (that really is going to be subjective) or decent advice as to how to get the most out of the system. That is probably more objectively realiseable.

The other aspect is to make the actual RULES nmore fun, and that probably is objectively realiseable too, but will cost more. More (appropriate) art, higher quality paper; GENERALLY people will enjoy a glossier product more, and consider it more fun. Subjectively, we could change the writing style, make it more humourous, but, like I say that is far more subjective AND would probably up the page count.

So it is something of a balancing act, as always, but I think more 'How To Use Hero' advice , right up near the front of the book, is going to be the best bet at a general increase in fun.

[Ice9]

I don't think there's a point to making HERO more like other games, M&M or BASH for instance - those games already exist, and people who prefer them are already playing them.

But if the players are not having fun with various aspects of character design, then you need to go after that.

Bolding mine. Who are "the players"? Because for myself, and a lot of people I know, the detailed character building is half the game. If I just wanted to jump in and start smacking around killer robots and stopping bank robberies, there are lots of systems that do that. Being able to build a character in as much depth as I want - that's the point of playing HERO, at least IME.

If players are not having fun waiting for a chance to do something, or if they are ineffectual -- those things are never fun.

This is the tricky part, because while being ineffectual isn't fun, making someone else ineffectual is a heck of a good time. It's pretty much what bricks and controllers do, isn't it? Being impervious to the agents' machine guns? Grabbing/entangling the speedster so he can't run away? Dropping a cloud of fog so the snipers can't hit anything? All about making your foes ineffectual.