Universality

[Lord Mhoram]

Don't know if this is really rules, but it ties in to the base ideas of the system, and I didn't see it on other threads, so I wanted to bring this up.

Please please please keep the system universal - the same gun write up is used in Supers, Modern, Cyber-hero ect. The same Tank write up is used in a WWII game, and a Supers game where that tank may show up.

That is one of the strengths of the Hero Line, and no other game system has that universality. It is one of the biggest reasons I play this game system, and I feel that is as central to the system as reasoning from Effect.

[Chris Goodwin]

Don't know if this is really rules, but it ties in to the base ideas of the system, and I didn't see it on other threads, so I wanted to bring this up.

Please please please keep the system universal - the same gun write up is used in Supers, Modern, Cyber-hero ect. The same Tank write up is used in a WWII game, and a Supers game where that tank may show up.

Ugh. Funny you should choose that particular example. As I recall, that discussion was a can of worms. Good reason for not making things universal.

See, you run into problems with supers in the source material being able to shred tanks and bounce tank gun shells, and those same tanks in a military setting either being unable to harm each other with their guns or being made of tinfoil.

I had thought of opening up a similar discussion, with a request to not force universality on the system.

[Vondy]

I'm going to take a contrary position.

The universal scale in hero is excellent for some genres and patently bad for others.

As a result, I think more than one scale should be provided.

This would allow hero to accomodate more genres more smoothly.

[Opal]

See, you run into problems with supers in the source material being able to shred tanks and bounce tank gun shells, and those same tanks in a military setting either being unable to harm each other with their guns or being made of tinfoil.

"Eggshells with Howitzers." Or was that battleships?

[Lord Mhoram]

I knew there would be a number of contrary positions. I've been involved in a couple of the heated discussions on the topic over the years.

But I almost never play a single genre. My fantasy is transworld with supers, SF and Old west characters. My SF is a science fantasy (think Dragonstar for D20), My supers has elements of other genres.

One of the truly unique things in the Hero system (because I play the Hero system, not champions or Pulp Hero, or Fantasy Hero) is that universality. That is one of it's greatest strenghts. Do the writeups need to be adjusted - probably, but I would still like to see the writeups themselves the same.

For the supers thing, just have genre rule that reinforces the genre, without affecting writeups - such as "attacks with the real weapon limitation do no stun if the body does not penetrate" and "defenses with the "real armor" limitation are half effect (or the attack is treated as penetrator) when attacked by a superhero" - I saw something like that on the boards, and instantly incorporated.. Makes superman much cheaper to make bulletproof.

That, as a rule in the Champions book would mean no change in writeups, keep the system universal, and allow everything to be universal.

[Vondy]

I knew there would be a number of contrary positions. I've been involved in a couple of the heated discussions on the topic over the years.

But I almost never play a single genre. My fantasy is transworld with supers, SF and Old west characters. My SF is a science fantasy (think Dragonstar for D20), My supers has elements of other genres.

One of the truly unique things in the Hero system (because I play the Hero system, not champions or Pulp Hero, or Fantasy Hero) is that universality. That is one of it's greatest strenghts. Do the writeups need to be adjusted - probably, but I would still like to see the writeups themselves the same.

For the supers thing, just have genre rule that reinforces the genre, without affecting writeups - such as "attacks with the real weapon limitation do no stun if the body does not penetrate" and "defenses with the "real armor" limitation are half effect (or the attack is treated as penetrator) when attacked by a superhero" - I saw something like that on the boards, and instantly incorporated.. Makes superman much cheaper to make bulletproof.

That, as a rule in the Champions book would mean no change in writeups, keep the system universal, and allow everything to be universal.

The need to use a rule that reinforces genre is a fix that indicates the universal scale doesn't meet all genres needs equally (I use the rule you noted for supers). I don't object to there being a default scale for published products (or at least, related groups of products like champions and dark champions), but we do need some options and some official genre reinforcing rules that will give those of us pedestrians who do not run genre-hoppers and seldom run supers the power to model their desired genres more easily without having to fiddle with something so basic. This is why I propose more than one strength scale for lift capacity (and adders-advantages-whatever for GMs who may decide they have characters who are an exception to their game's default genre). The limited granularity the universal scale currently imposes on heroic characters can be a real problem for people who don't play superheroic style games. As such, while I understand where you are coming from, my feeling is the scale needs to be reworked, or a heroic and superheroic scale need to be provided (though one will probably serve as the default for most published products).

[Lord Mhoram]

but we do need some options and some official genre reinforcing rules that will give those of us pedestrians who do not run genre-hoppers and seldom run supers the power to model their desired genres more easily without having to fiddle with something so basic.

I can see that. I also figured with a rule like I suggested, it means everything doesn't have to have two writeups.

Dunno about Seperate STR charts, I've run many Heroic games (well 2 very long running Fantasy games) and never had any problems, although I do understand completley about the non granularity.

Personally as long as it was "genre rules" and not in the writeups, I could handle that. Have a seperate STR chart, and genre enforcing rules like I mentioned in Champions, and build everything else for Heroic scale... as Champions is sort of the odd man out there. Like you said a perk/adder/thing that says "Superhero" and in Champions that is a default free adder. Sorta like the difference in equipment purchasing or human max on characteristics.

As long as the writeup itself doesn't change, and it is still used the same way (even if the effect on the character may be different) I can handle that.

[ghost-angel]

I think the ABILITY to be Universal and have a single write-up work cross-genre is important.

But this is Hero. I model on a game-by-game basis unless I have the express intent of making a game move across genres and settings.

[Captain Obvious]

It would be nice to have weapons and vehicles work cross-genre, and for the most part they do now, but I think no matter how they're done in 6th, there will still be those who are dissatisfied and will retool them anyway.

[misterdeath]

I think that in the main book(s) there should be a particular scale, sort of a universal scale, "Default Scale", whatever.

Then, in each Genre book, a discussion about how the scale can/should change in order to fit the genre that you're trying to create.

Then I'd like to see Setting books divided in half; one for the players on how to create characters, what kind of things they might know, etc., and one for the GM, with sample bad guys, adventures, and information the GM needs to know. And have those two use the Genre specific construction methods introduced in the Genre book.

And one of the Genre's could be "Transdimensional Hero" where it talks about/uses the default scale.

D

[James Gillen]

Ugh. Funny you should choose that particular example. As I recall, that discussion was a can of worms. Good reason for not making things universal.

See, you run into problems with supers in the source material being able to shred tanks and bounce tank gun shells, and those same tanks in a military setting either being unable to harm each other with their guns or being made of tinfoil.

I had thought of opening up a similar discussion, with a request to not force universality on the system.

I think that's less an argument against universality and more an argument against the current design philosophy on vehicles. I figured this out a while ago when I looked over the Star HERO/Terran Empire starships and realized they couldn't damage each other. On the other hand, even Galactic Champions heroes can't get through their fields either, which depending on genre is also not accurate.

JG

[James Gillen]

Now that I think about it (since Steve mentioned the possibility of a 'Size' trait), one of the mechanics I liked about the West End d6 Star Wars Revised was that they had a "Scale" mechanic, going from Personal scale, Landspeeder scale, Starfighter scale, all the way up to Death Star scale, which basically traded damage rating for dodge/resistance roll ability, which explains why it's hard to hit a much smaller target (it gets bonus to dodge) and also why a starfighter, no matter what its weaponry, is not going to hurt the Death Star point on (it gets bonuses to 'soak').

Now, HERO doesn't use dice codes to dodge attacks or soak damage, but if something like that could be implemented, it just might work...

JG

[Markdoc]

To me, the simplest solution is just to scale your games correctly. When we were playing JLA level champions, Bricks typically had rDEFs in the 30-60 Range and attacks like 18d6AP EB, 120 STR or 9d6 HKA were in play. More nimble characters had DCVs that went up into high double figures. For characters like that, a tank is an annoyance, but not a major threat and a squad of guys with automatic weapons is simply a speed bump.

When we were playing low-level fantasy, rDEF of 6, a DCV that reached double figures or a STR of 20 was pretty awesome.

To me, the problem is not the game system, but the design philosophy: if you play a game where (for example) you cap players' attacks at 60 AP and an assault rifle is 2d6 RKA, autofire, then you are - in effect - saying "I want normals to matter".

It seems strange to say it on teh Hero boards, but when designing your setting, maths matters.

cheers, Mark

[Vondy]

To me, the simplest solution is just to scale your games correctly. When we were playing JLA level champions, Bricks typically had rDEFs in the 30-60 Range and attacks like 18d6AP EB, 120 STR or 9d6 HKA were in play. More nimble characters had DCVs that went up into high double figures. For characters like that, a tank is an annoyance, but not a major threat and a squad of guys with automatic weapons is simply a speed bump.

When we were playing low-level fantasy, rDEF of 6, a DCV that reached double figures or a STR of 20 was pretty awesome.

To me, the problem is not the game system, but the design philosophy: if you play a game where (for example) you cap players' attacks at 60 AP and an assault rifle is 2d6 RKA, autofire, then you are - in effect - saying "I want normals to matter".

It seems strange to say it on teh Hero boards, but when designing your setting, maths matters.

cheers, Mark

My issue is that the current scaling in the system (a universal scale that was born for supers) means that you have a very narrow range to create heroic characters. I want more range. I can do that myself, and I have, but it does require me to hack the system to do it.

[steamteck]

I run a multiverse of three connected campaigns( fantasy/steampunk-space opera-superheores) and the present scaling works for me. I love that I don't have to worry about translation when characters move between world. Keep me able to do that in 6th or you lose tons for me.