Why are so many people upset that Cryptic is only using the Champions IP?

[Heroic Avatar]

On th Champions forums there are many threads with people determined to get the Heroes Games Rule Set(tm) used in the creation of the game?

Why are people so desperate to happen? Games Workshop has licensed its products out for decades now to things unrelated to table top gaming, and they have only managed to increase their brand awareness and their sales of table top games.


So why are people losing it on the other forums about not having Hero Rules? one person even described it this way:

Good sig mattlow. But, unfortunately, this is the Internet. No matter how many times it's said, or even if Steve Long went to these people's houses and pelted them with wiffle balls shouting, "It's not using the Hero System rules!" people still won't get it. They'll take obscure bullet points from some Interview that mentioned the word "hero" and extrapolate that that the new game will be the Hero system verbatum. Then, when the game actually comes out, and it isn't like that, they'll scream, rant and gnash their teeth shouting, "Cryptic lied! They are the suxxor !11!!111!!" even though the truth was stated plainly and simply right from the beginning, multiple times, from multiple people, on multiple boards.

Crytic does not have the rights to use any aspect of the Hero SYSTEM; only the fluff.

I imagine we'll see some cosmetic terminology uses to make the game appear more Hero Sytem-ish. Now this doesn't mean we won't seepoint buy, advatantages, limitations or even power pools because these things aren't unique to the Hero system.

The game isn't called Hero System online and it really shouldn't have been called Champions Online. It should have been called Champions Universe Online (CUO); because that's all we're getting.

keth

But no matter what Steve Long or Jack Emmert says, the vocal threats and the calls of doom if the system is not used continue unabated.
An example of such: How much of the Hero System is used in CO? What would you like to see used in CO?


I just don't see why its such a big deal. Other Game Systems have done it as well, but why the vehement stance for this franchise when the MMO will only bring attention to the system and increase interest in the websites and probably the sales numbers?

[mayapuppies]

While the Champions Universe and Turakian Age and Drak Champions Universe are all very well done (as well as the others not mentioned here), what really sets Hero Games apart is the Hero System mechanics.

For many people, Champions and Hero System are one and the same.

Or at least this is my opinion.

[Spence]

For many people, Champions and Hero System are one and the same.

Or at least this is my opinion.

And that opinion is not far off. The Hero System game mechanics have their roots in the original game called Champions. Back then Hero and Champions were one and the same. many old Herophiles have never called it anything but Champions. I still tend to do so myself, though I have made an effort in the last few years to change that.

There will always be those people who don't understand that they are not the center of the universe. It is like the handful that have huffed of the board because of 6th Ed. Obviously Hero only exists to personally provide them with what they want

This is the only time I have ever even heard of a company announcing an upcoming update over a year in advance and actually asking for fan input.

As for the MMO, the ability to use the rich 25 year world history will save Cryptic an a$$load on development and allow them to concentrate on the MMO itself. Plus the plot lines and backstories will be much more coherent and feel a little less artificial.

But to answer Heroic Avatar directly, IMO people fear change, and if change in inevitable they what the change in question to follow their personal preference.

For me, all I ask is the ability to create my character concept, not a pre-determined by class clone. And for the game to have actual role-playing and not just be a shooter/console combat game. "Finish Him!"

[incrdbil]

It's the Internet. If people weren't out there missing the point and ignoring the obvious, we'd have only a fraction of total useage that we have these days.

[Haerandir]

The other thing is that a lot of people just don't have any realistic appreciation of the limitations inherent in getting a computer to take the place of a GM.

I love the Hero System. I wouldn't want to play in a Hero System game run by an AI. No matter how carefully you program it, there's just too many loopholes, special cases and judgement calls involved. Even leaving balance and content development issues aside.

Also, a lot of people, and not just Hero System grognards who've never played an MMO, hear the word 'archetype' and assume it means 'your character is predefined for you and you only get to make a couple of largely cosmetic decisions about how it works'. Which is certainly a valid concern. My biggest complaint about some of the more popular fantasy MMO's was that you had a very limited selection of options to distinguish your character from 'every other Nightshade in Hibernia', or whatever. It also appears to be a concern that Cryptic is aware of. I was on the Cryptic CoH boards back in 2002, before the deal with NCSoft, and the game they were talking about back then was very different from the one that got released. I remember when the NCSoft deal was announced, it was very quickly followed by a string of announcements about changes to the gameplay features they'd been describing for months previously. I suspect that a lot of compromises had to be made to get the game out the door in a timely fashion. It had already missed at least one firm deadline at that point. I get the sense that CO is going to look a lot more like the game Cryptic wanted to make 5 years ago. Pure speculation, of course. But I'm crossing my fingers. I was looking forward to that original version of CoH.

[Spence]

The other thing is that a lot of people just don't have any realistic appreciation of the limitations inherent in getting a computer to take the place of a GM.

I love the Hero System. I wouldn't want to play in a Hero System game run by an AI. No matter how carefully you program it, there's just too many loopholes, special cases and judgement calls involved. Even leaving balance and content development issues aside.

Also, a lot of people, and not just Hero System grognards who've never played an MMO, hear the word 'archetype' and assume it means 'your character is predefined for you and you only get to make a couple of largely cosmetic decisions about how it works'. Which is certainly a valid concern. My biggest complaint about some of the more popular fantasy MMO's was that you had a very limited selection of options to distinguish your character from 'every other Nightshade in Hibernia', or whatever. It also appears to be a concern that Cryptic is aware of. I was on the Cryptic CoH boards back in 2002, before the deal with NCSoft, and the game they were talking about back then was very different from the one that got released. I remember when the NCSoft deal was announced, it was very quickly followed by a string of announcements about changes to the gameplay features they'd been describing for months previously. I suspect that a lot of compromises had to be made to get the game out the door in a timely fashion. It had already missed at least one firm deadline at that point. I get the sense that CO is going to look a lot more like the game Cryptic wanted to make 5 years ago. Pure speculation, of course. But I'm crossing my fingers. I was looking forward to that original version of CoH.

Sounds like a pretty spot on summery.

[Heroic Avatar]

Thank you to those who have posted on this thread so far.

I am a little surprised that only 5 people responded so far, and none of them think having Heroes rule set as a base for the MMO is a good idea.

I probably should not be surprised at this, but as vocal as the proponents of the Heroes Rule set are on the other forum, I just assumed they would want a chance to explain why they are so against it in a logical manner.

Come to think of it... I think thats exactly what they don't want. If these people posted on this forum, they would probably be flayed alive for not appreciating what a great opportunity this is for the game they love.

Over there they look like proponents of the game they love, over hear they would might sound seriously deranged...

But thats just my warped opinion.


I would really like to hear from some of the proponents of having Heroes Rule Set as the basis of the MMO.

I know your out here, heck I can put at least 1 full page of links to threads about how the game is going to be bad if it does not use Heroes Rules in some form.

I would really like to hear your opinions.

[Lord Mhoram]

While I agree with most of the posts on this thread, and I agree that getting the hero system online would be really difficult, I would also add to the discussion this fact.

Everyone I know plays hero for the system, not the IP. Two use completely homebrew setting with nothing from the Champs U, one uses aspects of the Champs U, but our main campaign city is Freedom City from Mutants and Masterminds. I use elements from 5 or 6 different Superhero games, plus a lot of solo stuff thrown in.

I don't think I am alone in that kind of approach. Sure Foxbat is nice, and Dr Destroyer makes a great villian, and Viper are fun to trash, but similar character with similar names work just as well.

What we love is the system - how you can build whatever you want, that your characters are just what you make them. That is the primary appeal of the PnP game to many. Those people won't care about the Champions IP if the system isn't there.

See also Champions the New Millenium and Fuzion. Fans would not accept that as Champions even though it used that IP (changed some) but not the system.

I plan to play CO (it would be my first MMO), but it won't be as great as if the Hero system were the engine - but trying to code that into the game, I can see as something that is impossible.

[AmadanNaBriona]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=Purple]


I would really like to hear from some of the proponents of having Heroes Rule Set as the basis of the MMO.

I would really like to hear your opinions.

For my part, I really don't care how the game is written "under the hood' as it were, but at the user interface/character creation level I'd like it to be recognizably related to the pen and paper HERO system, enough so that porting characters from the MMO to a pen & paper game is a fairly simple conversion without retooling everything, and somewhat vice versa.

If I can write up a character I really like for champions, then hop into the CO character builder and come up with a close duplicate of my character, I'll be fairly happy. If I can also avoid dealing with a huge influx of new players who are outraged that the PnP system doesn't translate their 50th level Tank/Scrapper I'll be even happier.

In a nutshell...if the game's gonna have the Champions name on it, and the production of the MMO is spurring on a whole new edition of the system... I want to see the two games being at least cosmetically similar at the player level. Point buy characters, familiar stats, no level based advancement, no classes, a speed characteristic that determines how fast your actions are executed, low level experience gains that can be allocated freely or saved towards larger purchases, and goal/story based experience awards rather than combat related awards.

[kridenow]

Actually, I believe a MMOG could be done using the HERO system.
But I also believe it's not a good idea when you aim at releasing a MMOG and have the ambition of having more players than just a niche.

I just hope Champions Online will get some bits of the HERO "philosophy", allows a flexible character creation. In other words, going for a compromise between what can offer a Pen and Paper RPG and what a MMOG is generally built on.


Since Cryptic is vaguely related to City of Heroes (I've heard), I can just say that, while City of Heroes is based on archetypes and might look drastically limiting character creation and creativity, you still get a huge number of combination to play with.
After two years and half playing CoH, I still have a ton of combinations I didn't try.

If Champions Online goes a bit beyond the archetypes concept and allows more freedom, I'd be sincerely happy. Not because I want more freedom at all cost, just because it is a welcomed change and won't be just a redo of the CoH system.

Getting the IP of Champions Universe... it's hard to tell... It depends a lot how it will be used.
But since I appreciate a lot what Cryptic has done on CoH, I have no real reason to believe they are going to do a bad job for their next game.

As long as Cryptic delivers a good supers game based on the Champions Universe, I'm going to be happy.
Using the Champions Universe IP is already a nice choice. I'm not going to cry if a very good modular game system, but aimed at PnP gaming, isn't used.

[Supreme Serpent]

I wouldn't want the gameplay to be a paste-over of the Hero system rules.

I would like that a lot of the basic concepts to be elements of character creation/progression, and for an impact on game play.

Like:
*Points-based creation and advancement vs. levels. Ability to save XP for bigger purchases or spend them as fast as you get them, your choice.
*Defenses different depending on type of attack (PD vs. ED, limited defenses, AP vs. Hardened, etc.)
*Ability to add Advantages and Limitations on powers, affecting gameplay and cost.
*Price breaks for similar powers, simulating Power Frameworks to an extent and giving a break to characters that increase the breadth of their abilities rather than trying to just ramp up max damage, etc. Like if already have "Ranged Attack->Blast->Laser blast", get a break if you buy "Ranged Attack->Blast->Fire blast->Explosion", and an even bigger break if you keep the same SFX and got "Ranged Attack->Blast->Laser blast->Armor Piercing" instead.
*Ability to tailor drawbacks/"Disadvantages" to an extent. They've already said can do this to the extent of making own arch-enemy ('Hunted') and can choose to have Secret vs. Public ID, so I think they're already going down that road. Choose your own vulnerabilities, maybe with bonus points if 'make sense' given your SFX (like fire guy getting more points for vuln to cold than he would for vuln to psionics).

[mayapuppies]

I am totally with Kridenow and Supreme Serpent on this. The "PHILOSOPHY" of the Hero System is what I (and I believe those other por-hero system folks) are really after.

Lord Mhoram is also dead on with my folks, we've always used our own Home Brew worlds for every game system we've ever played.

[Lord Mhoram]

Lord Mhoram is also dead on with my folks, we've always used our own Home Brew worlds for every game system we've ever played.

Yeah, people used to homebrew world, and love the system, look at the idea of a Champions games and think "But it doesn't have what I like most". I'm sure that is part of it. Hero system fans are an amazingly devoted bunch.

[Thia Halmades]

Call it a giant moment of 'meh' for me, but I don't see a need for "t3h mechanics" to be included. I would like to see a very wide open level of customization, sure, but the HERO system is not intuitive. As I've said on many occasions, what I really want is a streamlined GUI (to stop scaring n00bz) and a complete toolkit beneath it, so I can crack open the casing on any object and redesign it, no muss, no fuss.

I don't really give a hoot if COMMO uses the "HERO System" -- I don't anticipate using HERO Designer to dev my character. I really don't. I would like to see some of the terminology kept for flavor, but I have no illusions that the game itself will run on its own engine. So... I suppose that isn't what you're looking for, but I'd like to sit down with the game and have a feeling of familiarity. But I don't want to play HERO: The MMORPG. Bleh.

[Karmakaze]

I'd like to see some of the design aesthetic of the HERO system used for the online game, but pencil and paper RPG is not CRPG, any more than stage plays are movies. Literal ports never work well. For pencil and paper, you can have any SFX you can think of; for the MMO, you can only have any SFX the devs could think of and easily implement.