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Thread: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

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    Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    Introduction
    I am making this its own thread, as I have a number of ideas as well as wild conjecture on the concept. As it is a cross-topic subject, touching on Disadvantages, Characteristics, General Power, and Perks (so far), it doesn't fit neatly into any other topic except possibly General Rules, which I don't want to clutter up. Depending on how things go, it may turn out that it is not as cross-threaded as I believe it will be, at which point I'll find the appropriate home for it.

    Keeping the thread on forum
    While this thread is mainly about my obsession with merging the character building rules, what I'm hoping for is that the synergy of various rules proposals being used for a specific purpose will generate new ideas and further proposals, without having it scattered all over the place. I also hope to showcase advantages and possibly disadvantages to the proposals I am working with. As we go along, I will try to put specific ideas in the appropriate threads. If this plays itself out to the point where that synergy no longer exists, I will move the bulk of the thread to my blog in case anyone wants to reference the overall discussion. If anyone wants to point out an idea that has use here, feel free: I think in this case a link will be sufficient, as the proposal is presumably already in the correct thread.

    Premise and History
    For some time now, I have toyed with the idea of merging all of the items that are built like characters into the mainstream character rules, with contributions from a number of others. This resulted in the Incomplete Characters Rules, and a form of this (which adheres to the official rules significantly more than previous versions) was published in Digital Hero #10. It attempted to use the same character building rules for everything that is built similarly to a Character, such as Vehicles and Automata.

    The advantages: Fewer different types of characters means fewer total rules, in theory, and provides a system for creating new character types from existing rules rather than making new rules for them.

    The disadvantage: It's esoteric.

    The basic idea is that the primary difference between ordinary characters and things like Vehicles, Computers, and so on is that these "characters" lack one or more Characteristics that full Characters enjoy. There are some other differences, but that's the odd one and the most important. However, with one exception, all of these differences are covered by Steve's suggestions somewhere.

    Sixth Edition Proposals
    With 6th Edition, Steve has made a number of proposals that actually make this possible, and if all of them are instituted effectively make the Incomplete Character Rules into something that can be done in the core rules.

    Essentials from Steve's proposals
    1. Remove Negative Characteristics, and adopt that a 0 in a characteristic means you don't have it. It is not necessary to start from 0, just sell it back.
    2. Allow all characters to take Automaton Powers. Alternatively, use Absolute Effect with Stun to create a creature that does not take Stun damage, but the Automaton Powers are more straightforward and have a lot of history.

    Non-essentials from Steve's proposals
    1. Decouple Figured Characteristics. Not strictly necessary, but it will make some builds cleaner.
    2. The addition of a Size characteristic. This is consistent with the goal of making Bases and Vehicles built like everything else, although Powers could also be used to do this.
    3. Use PD/ED for everthing. DEF for everything would work, but I'm going to use PD/ED for examples. Mainly for consistency across character types.
    4. Add an ability that works like Force Wall for personal defense. This is especially important for anything without a Stun score (they have Automaton Powers).
    5. No Points for Disadvantages, but some other reward system. This is because many Incomplete Characters are going to lack senses or have different rules for their Life Support, and it makes it a bit easier to take this into account if you're not getting, say, 80 points of Disadvantages for being a computer.
    6. Some method of making a character indestructable/unkillable. This is only valuable for character types that aren't already part of 5th Edition, such as Spirits from 4th Edition. In my examples to come, I am using the Absolute Effect Rule with Body rather than an example of making an Invulnerability Power.


    In addition to these, I have suggested reworking Cargo to be more generic and allow it for all characters. Just being able to have a space inside your body is probably not worthy of a new Power, but something that could cover bags of holding as well as vehicle cargo probably would be. This allows you to, among other things, hold things "inside" (depending on special effect) so that it gets the Defense of the character/container. While my suggestion, it is in keeping with making Automaton Powers available to all characters, and is helpful for this thread.
    Last edited by GamePhil; Feb 28th, '08 at 07:40 AM. Reason: Tag: General Rules thread
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    Some quick examples off the top of my head, will be gone into with more thought later

    My initial samples and comments, in no particular order and not fully developed.

    1. A 4th Edition Spirit is gotten by selling back all but DEX, INT, EGO, PRE, maybe COM, and SPD. It then buys Desolidification and other Powers to "be a spirit", or is defined as being on the Spirit Plane. Take a Physical Limitation for Destroyed If Ego Is Drained To 0/-Ego.
    2. And so on. Things without a Body score need a definition of what a 0 Body means: does it mean you're dead, or simply that you have no Body to affect? Possibly, rather than having a 0 Body, Body might be bought up sufficiently to be covered by Absolute Effect (a body of X means you can't be killed/destroyed).
    3. I also like the idea of more detailed Foci: once the Focus is bought, you get a certain number of points, perhaps based on the Active Point cost, perhaps having to be bought separately, to create an Incomplete Character that is the Focus' physical form. Irreplacable Foci need to buy whatever method of being Indestructable may be in the rules, a sentient focus needs INT and EGO (at least), and so on. By designing the "character" for a Focus in such a manner, it combines several options for it in one set of rules, and solves Derek's rock problem (if you pick up some rocks, they have X DEF and X Body, but if you buy it as a Focus they have Apts/5 DEF and 1 Body, and so on). This would likely be an optional rule if adopted at all.
    Last edited by GamePhil; Mar 12th, '08 at 09:44 AM.
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    What A Zero Characteristic Might Mean

    Here begins the wild conjecture. These could be taken as suggestions to Steve, but are really for the discussion of the Incomplete Character concept, as we don't yet know how he is going to handle this if it goes in.

    I am currently ignoring the problem with 0 Characteristics meaning you lose them and how Drains will interact with that, as it is not germaine to the discussion.
    Strength: The character simply has no intrinsic ability to apply force.
    Dexterity: The character has no coordination and no ability to hit targets using CV, and has a DCV based solely on its size and/or velocity. If it has actions, it acts after everyone else.
    Constitution: The character has no ability to resistance to being Stunned. It can't be targeted by Powers that work vs. CON, but if they have an appropriate special effect they might work against a different Characteristic.
    Special note on Constitution: It may be that Mental Powers that work against CON might have a Class of Body rule, in the same way that Mental Powers have Classes of Mind. In this case, a character without CON would have a different Class of Body, and would not be affected by ones that affect the Human Class of Body. Like the original Class of Mind, this concept should be used with caution.
    Body: The character has no physical form, and thus nothing to destroy. Effectively, it starts out "dead". In the current rules, the only example is a Base, which has no centralized body but buys walls and buildings instead.
    Intelligence: The character has no Perception nor ability to process information, quickly or otherwise. I am assuming Perception will not be split off.
    Ego: The character has no free will. A Mental Power that works against its Class of Mind will function against a different Characteristic. Presence Attacks must go against the character's Presence.
    Presence: The character has no ability to influence those around them. If it also has a 0 Ego, it has no defense against Presence Attacks.
    Special note on Presence Attacks: Having an Ego of 0 might mean it is immune to Presence Attacks, as the creature has no will and only responds to some form of programming/orders. For this discussion, it is assumed that immunity to Presence Attacks is bought as enough limited Presence to count as an Absolute Effect.
    Comeliness: The character's appearance has no impact. I am assuming COM will be kept and be unchanged for purposes of this discussion, so it has little impact on most Incomplete characters in any event.
    PD/ED: The character has no defense against physical/energy attacks.
    Speed: The character can take no actions.
    Recovery: The character cannot recover Stun or END, nor can it heal Body, except by using Powers.
    Endurance: The character cannot spend Endurance. If it has Stun, it cannot spend Stun as END.
    Stun: The character is not conscious in the normal sense, although it may be aware of its surroundings in the same way as a person at 0 Stun if it has INT. It can take no actions of its own, although it may have Persistent Abilities that function or abilities that can be used by some form of controller.
    The 0 Size Characteristic will be dealt with when I find or write a version of Size I like.

    Characters with 0s in one or more Characteristics can buy Limited forms of them, for example to defend from Presence Attacks if it has no Presence. Examples of this will be created with sample Incomplete Characters.
    Last edited by GamePhil; Feb 28th, '08 at 11:23 AM. Reason: Tag: To go into Characteristics thread
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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    A note from your friendly neighborhood Line Developer: GamePhil politely asked permission to open a new thread and I provisionally granted it. Please don't take this as a license to start opening threads willy-nilly. The established threads cover the vast majority of material appropriate for this forum.
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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    And I thank you kindly.
    Any Champions game can be improved by dropping Man Cactus into it.
    Any Fantasy HERO game can be improved by dropping the Hand of Doom Tavern into it.
    Any game can be improved by using the HERO system.

    6. Because I want my sentient binary load lifter.

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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    I had a minor epiphany over in the characteristics section. But, I didn't go into it as deeply as I might have liked, because it started to hit the incomplete topic.

    Primary characteristics bought 'as characteristics' give you figured characteristics. You can't sell back the figureds, at all, because that's part of it being a primary characteristic. You can't put limitations on characteristics, at all, either. Draining a primary characteristic proportionally drains the figured. If you buy up a figured, draining the primary to 0 won't bring the figured to 0, and further draining the primary also won't reduce the bought-up figured. If you have NCM, or it's instituted in the game, it aplies to characteristics bought as such.

    Then, you allow primary characteristics to be bought 'as powers.' When bought 'as powers,' they don't give you figureds. The Active Cost doesn't change, but you can place limitations on them, put them in frameworks, and when a pirmary bought as a power is drained, only it is drained (well, unless it's in an EC).

    This would be comparable to buying your EB inside or outside an EC. To put it in an EC, you have to find one or more other powers of the same Apts to bundle with it, you accept a higher impact from drain, and you and the GM have to work out what powers are OK to add to the EC. If you buy it outside such a framework, you just buy it straight, with no restriction.

    Players wanting a character to lack certain characteristics should have a reasonable option to do so. Players wanting fully decoupled characters could sell back thier primaries, and use the points to buy characteristics as powers - it would be expensive, but, as with eschewing frameworks, total freedom of design does tend to cost you a bit more. And, they won't loose 4 stats every time someone drains thier STR.


    If you wanted to be even more radical, you could make Characteristics powers by default, starting them all of at 0 (except SPD which should have a hard 'floor' of 1), and have the Primary/Figured relationship be a framework that the GM (or, with permission, players) can use to design different species. Characters built this way would have 125 additional points - the cost of buying all your primaries from 0 to 10. Such templates should 'save' about 50 pts (current saves 52), when the 125 pts are spent to bring the character to 'average' for the species. You could concievably even include powers as figureds in such a thing. Mystaarans might get 1d of EGO blast per 5 EGO or Cyclopeans 1d of EB eyebeams per 5 PRE or something - but not get much for STR, because of thier radically alien biology.

    Growth or shrinking could be SIZ bought as a power, with Costs END. That is, if you go with the idea of SIZ as a characteristic figured from STR and BOD, and costing points to /change/ (up or down).
    Apologies, as it was kinda rambly. That's inspiration for you.


    While human and essentially human-like characters could be left to work as they do now - with the addition of SIZ and/or elimination of COM or whatever - with Primary and Figured Characteristics bought as powers. More exotic characters could use rules to delete characteristics, forge different relationships among them, or even create new 'characteristics' from powers or existing ones. Thus you could even give, say, a Vehicle new stats like Accelleration, or a turning circle (DEX-SIZE). The system could be left as a 'behind the curtain' thing for designers, an option for GMs to create new races, or, even something a player could use, with the GMs permission and a big STOP sign, to make a more quixotic character more viable.

    What I have not even started to consider in detail is what kind of 'framework' "characteristics" would constitute. But, if it could be worked out, you'd have a system for building a set of characteristics to model - and, if you wanted to encourage it in your campaign as a GM, fascilitate - any sort of character. If you wanted humans as PCs in your world, but weren't absolutely adamant about it, you could use the standard characteristic set, but let players sell back thier primaries and re-build exotic characters from scratch. If you wanted humans to be side-by-side with Robots, Plasmoids, and Fuzzy Blue Creatures from Alpha Centauri, you could provide Characteristics for each, that can all give a cost break form figureds, while being quite different from eachother.
    Last edited by Opal; Feb 27th, '08 at 11:28 AM.

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    Re: What A Zero Characteristic Might Mean

    Quote Originally Posted by GamePhil View Post
    Special note on Constitution: It may be that Mental Powers that work against CON might have a Class of Body rule, in the same way that Mental Powers have Classes of Mind. In this case, a character without CON would have a different Class of Body, and would not be affected by ones that affect the Human Class of Body. Like the original Class of Mind, this concept should be used with caution.
    In fact, maybe Class of Body could be a useful concept to add.

    Classes of Body: Living, Undead, Spirit, Animate Machine, Inanimate Machine, Inanimate Object.

    Living: Encompasses humans, animals, aliens. Possesses all stats.

    Undead: Animated dead things. Skeletons, zombies, liches, etc. Possesses all stats except CON, END, REC, and STUN. Must buy END Reserve if it has Powers that use END. Does not suffer from STUN effects. Edit: Must buy Does Not Take STUN.

    Spirit: Ghosts, other spirits built using (or not) the Spirits rules, or the Incomplete rules. Possesses DEX, INT, EGO, PRE, SPD. Could potentially possess "spirit" versions of the physical stats, in the event "spirit plane" combat is handled with an analogue of physical world combat.

    Animate Machine: Robots, androids; any machine that could potentially be treated as a player character. Computers and AIs could be considered animate machines. Objects with a mind of some kind and a power source. Possesses minimum of DEX, INT, SPD, plus BODY, either PD and ED or rDEF. Potentially could possess STR, CON, EGO, PRE, END, REC, STUN. Edit: Must buy Does Not Take STUN if it does not suffer from STUN effects.

    Inanimate Machine: Vehicles, firearms. Mindless objects with moving parts and/or power sources. Possesses minimum of BODY, PD and ED or rDEF. Could possess STR.

    Inanimate Object: Doors, rocks, buildings. Corpses, unless you want to create a "Formerly Living" Class. Mindless objects with few or no moving parts and/or no power sources. BODY and PD/ED or rDEF. Could conceivably possess a STR score (a table might), but doesn't have DEX, CON, INT, EGO, PRE, SPD, REC, END, or STUN.
    Last edited by Chris Goodwin; Feb 27th, '08 at 11:16 AM.
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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    Questions:

    • Could you Aid a target to have a stat that it does not possess?
    • Could you Transform a target from one class to another? I recommend not without an adder. (Note that we have an Adder for Healing to "transform" a target from "dead" to "living"; it seems reasonable we could provide one for Transform to do something similar. Which might turn Resurrection into a variant on Transform. At any rate, it should take an Adder to add or remove stats.)
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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    If Size becomes a more generally used Characteristic, inanimate objects might possess a Size stat instead of BODY and/or STR.
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    Body And The Absolute Effect Rule

    There are going to be sample Incomplete items that I want to be indestructable/unkillable, and there is currently no rule that does that in the manner I wish. I am not necessarily talking about "indestructable" in the sense that it takes no damage, but only that it can't be destroyed by conventional means. That is, it has an effectively infinite Body. One method of modeling this is to buy so much extra Body that it would take more force than the GM is ever likely to bring to bear on the object, and use the Absolute Effect Rule. This value will obviously change depending on the game setting, and when I use it in this thread I will simply refer to it as Absolute Body rather than assigning a specific number or cost.

    Other Powers are also appropriate to make a character effectively unkillable, of course. Desolidification comes to mind, as does Armor bought up to Absolute Effect levels. I wanted, however, a single number that prevented the target from being killed, not a list of powers, and did not want it to be Invulnerable (for example, a Toon can be damaged, but not killed, unless you have the Dip). To do this with Defenses would also require getting every type of Defense that a character might be killed for not having, and having the Body Only Limitation, another list. So, Absolute Body seemed a reasonable choice.

    Most other Characteristics can have some interesting Absolute Effects. For example, Absolute Strength might mean there is nothing you can't lift. However, most of them I don't see specific applicability to Incomplete Characters, so I didn't define their effects here. Absolute CON and STUN might be good ways to get the Automaton Powers, but since we've already got them, I chose to use them, instead, leaving only Body as relevant.
    Last edited by GamePhil; Feb 28th, '08 at 03:40 AM. Reason: Tag: For General Rules threads
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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
    In fact, maybe Class of Body could be a useful concept to add.
    I like your analysis of the idea, although it's an oddball notion to begin with. The concept allows Mental Powers to be used against things that technically don't have minds, and could be used for an Activate-like power and the ability to take control of a vehicle from a distance. I do wonder if that would be worth any kind of Limitation, as this originally came up because of CON's interaction with Based on Con. I wouldn't think so.

    I think that should be marked as something to be moved to another thread if and when this one has played out, I'm thinking General Powers since it affects the Mental Powers in general.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
    Questions:
    • Could you Aid a target to have a stat that it does not possess?
    That's one of those currently muddy areas. If the 0 Stat == not having the stat idea gets in, it means that Draining a Characteristic to 0 logically removes it, so Aiding it should logically add it. I'm not sure either of those are desirable, but I'd rather not have to make an exception to avoid it. After all, Draining your EB down to 0 means you no longer have it. But requiring an Adder like you describe below might be fix this up.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
    Questions:
    • Could you Transform a target from one class to another?
    I would think so, though some form of restriction might be necessary as you say. Actually, I feel more comfortable with Transform adding or removing a Characteristic than Aid/Drain, I just haven't come up with a reason not to allow those powers to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Goodwin View Post
    If Size becomes a more generally used Characteristic, inanimate objects might possess a Size stat instead of BODY and/or STR.
    That's a good point, I haven't come up with my "example" (read: wild speculation) for the Size stat yet. And for that matter, have no ideas for it yet, and I'm going to need one of those as its one of my second list. Any thoughts on how Size might work? It would seem odd for it to give bonuses to Body and STR in a world with no Figured Characteristics, but then again, you lose the Size, you lose those too.
    Last edited by GamePhil; Feb 28th, '08 at 03:41 AM.
    Any Champions game can be improved by dropping Man Cactus into it.
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    Any game can be improved by using the HERO system.

    6. Because I want my sentient binary load lifter.

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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    Quote Originally Posted by GamePhil View Post
    You kind of blindsided me there, as I was going in a specific direction and now need to absorb this and see how and if it can fit into the puzzle.
    I kind of surprised myself with it, too. I don't think there's really a new idea in there, they just all finally meshed in my little brain.

    Certainly being able to design your own Figured Characteristics is in the spirit of the discussion.
    Cool, I would hate to derail this thread.

    As I'm thinking about it, maybe it could be thought of as 'Characteristics' /being/ a framework.

    Characteristics are abilities that all normal members of a type of character (all humans, all zomies, all elves, all robots, all vehicles, all spirits, etc) have, and, that vary smoothly (within limits) around an average. Sight, for instance, wouldn't be a characteristic for humans, since it doesn't vary /smoothly/ around 20/20 (and there's not much of a way to quantify 20/30 from 20/15 in the game even if it did). All the regular characterisitics would count for humans - as would Running, possibly even swimmimg.

    Primary Characteristics are not derived from other Characteristics, Figured Characteristics are. When you buy a Primary Characteristic you get the corresponding figured characteristic, whether you want it or not, and you can't sell it back. If you want more of a Primary Characteristic without the corresponding figured, you buy it as a power, outside the Characteristic Framework.

    The Characteristic Framework not only steers players towards particular types of characters, but towards particular abilities within those types. Humans, for instance, recieve a great deal of synergy from figured characteristics when they buy up STR, CON and DEX. This means that human 'adventurers' tend to be quite physical, and even those not focused heavily of physical adventuring can develop such abilities pretty easily if they like. A different Characteristic Framework would focus characters of that type in a different direction. For instance, if Mystaarans recieve figured characteristics based on thier CON, INT, & EGO, adventurers of thier species would tend to be healthy, quick-witted, and willful, but not strong or physically agile. Or, alternately, if Egalitarian Elves recieve 1 Apt of figured characteristics for each 3 Apts they have in any (and all) Primaries, thier adventurers might tend to be rather well-rounded in thier primary stats - lotsa straight 14's.

    Of course, if a GM didn't mind, he could let a character be built without the 'Characteristic Framework' at all, or decline to use any, meaning that all characters would be by up any abilities they wanted from a clean slate, and simply not have any they didn't want.
    Last edited by Opal; Feb 27th, '08 at 02:52 PM.

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    Re: Incomplete Characters 6th Edition (Consolidated Character Creation)

    Quote Originally Posted by GamePhil View Post
    That's one of those currently muddy areas. If the 0 Stat == not having the stat idea gets in, it means that Draining a Characteristic to 0 logically removes it, so Aiding it should logically add it. I'm not sure either of those are desirable, but I'd rather not have to make an exception to avoid it. After all, Draining your EB down to 0 means you no longer have it. But requiring an Adder like you describe below might be fix this up.
    Still thinking about the 'Characteristic Framework' thing, here, but: If a Characteristic is something every character of your type has, it should probably only go down to 1. If it's bought as a power, it could be taken down to 0 and just be gone. An adder on the drain could give you the ability to eliminate a characteristic, effectively changing the victim on a fundamental level. A Discoroporation Ray drains your BOD to 0, you no longer have a body. A Spell of Immobility drains your SPD to 0, you no longer act.

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    Power Framework: Characteristics

    This post or another more developed one in the same vein may eventually go into the Characteristics thread.

    This is a development of Opal's suggestion about Characteristics, Figured and otherwise. It will be used for some examples of Incomplete Characters, as it is a strongly related concept, especially with regard to the stated purpose of the thread: to unify character building into one system.

    Much of the list seen in this post are directly from Opal's suggestions, with modifications from Chris Goodwin, restated here mainly to have them all in one place.

    This is a proposal to subtly change the nature of Characteristics and their relationship to Figured Characteristics. One way to look at this is that Characteristics aren't separate from Powers, but are Powers bought through a new type of Power Framework. The qualities of this Framework could be:

    1. Each Power bought in the Characteristic Framework helps to define what the character is at its most basic level. For example, the Characteristic Framework may indicate you are a Human, a Vehicle, or a Thing Man Was Not Meant To Know, and then you would also buy other abilities (or buy up Characteristics) to create an individual.
    2. You can only have one Characteristic Framework, as it will define your basic character.
    3. The Characteristic Framework is divided into two types of Characteristics: Primary and Figured.
    3A. Primary Characteristics are bought normally, though they may have a base value determined by the GM (usually 10 each).
    3B. Figured Characteristics are also bought normally, but have a starting value derived in some way from the Primary Characteristics. In general, the total value of starting Figured Characteristics should be about 2/5ths the total value of starting Primary Characteristics. The specific relationships are up to the designer, but the list of traditional Figured Characteristics is a good place to look for ideas on what is reasonably balanced.
    3C. Figured characteristics should be affected along with the Primaries in the same proportion as they had when bought. That is, if you lose 5 STR, you lose 1 PD. This continues until the Primary reaches its minimum (usually 1), points invested to buy up the Figured Characteristics must be affected separately. A possible exception is for Primaries that represent damage that can be taken, such as Body, which may or may not affect their Figureds.
    3D. Figured Characteristics provide the traditional cost break that Power Frameworks generally enjoy.
    4. Abilities not bought in this Framework have a starting value of 0 (that is, you don't have them at all), even if they are commonly Characteristics, and if bought as Powers can be Drained down to 0.
    5. Primary Characteristics can only be modified down to 1, not 0, barring special Adders or other rules that allow them to be removed completely. A human can be made so weak as to not be able to do much, but not actually made to have no STR at all without special considerations.
    5A. Possible exceptions to this rule are any Primary Characteristic that indicates how much damage the character can take, such as Body for a Human or Ego for a 4th Edition Spirit.
    6. Figured Characteristics should be examined to determine how much they can be Drained or otherwise modified, as they do not so strongly define the Character as Primaries. Most can be Drained to 0.
    7. A typical setting will use one Characteristic Framework as standard. To change to a different such Framework, simply sell back the Base Characteristics the GM granted and use those points to buy entirely separate Powers or a different Framework.
    8. The Characteristic Framework suggests what Class of Mind/Body/Spirit the character belongs to.
    9. Any Powers, including traditional Characteristics, could conceivably be used to develop new Characteristics for this Framework, whether Primary or Figured.
    10. Primaries can be bought down from the base the GM provides, Figureds cannot. The only place where the point cost for Figureds comes into play is in determining how many of them are provided from Primaries.

    Notes:
    1. This post gets a bit further into esoteric game design philosophy than I'd like for this forum, but appears to have turned out all reasonably straightforward, except for how Figureds would be defined for a new Characteristic Framework. I plan to still use the outline from the first post for my examples initially.
    2. I don't much care for 3B, as it promotes arbitrary connections between Characteristics that, more importantly, have no testing behind them. The traditional Figured Characteristics may have originally been likewise arbitrary, but they have withstood the test of time and so are less worrisome in that regard. However, it is a system that allows almost the traditional Characteristics Block (it is actually 2 points shy on how many Figured Characteristics it gives). Just waiting for a better idea to come along.
    3. Note that this does not give the same results as decoupling Figureds in getting a new character. If using the Human Characteristic Package, you only get 125 points for selling back Primaries, and nothing for selling back Figured, whereas you would get 177 points for selling everything back if decoupled and the current costs are used. This is a feature of most Frameworks, however: saving some number of points, so I'm not worried about it for the moment.
    Last edited by GamePhil; Feb 28th, '08 at 03:52 AM.
    Any Champions game can be improved by dropping Man Cactus into it.
    Any Fantasy HERO game can be improved by dropping the Hand of Doom Tavern into it.
    Any game can be improved by using the HERO system.

    6. Because I want my sentient binary load lifter.

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    Class of X

    No, not Xavier's school.

    As many Characters presented here have no Mind, per se, I propose expanding the concept of Class of Mind in the same way Transforms work, so that you have Class of Mind/Body/Spirit. This has the effect of allowing Mental Powers to be used in unusual ways, though Telepathy and Mental Illusions might not be of much use against a target without a Mind to read or send illusions to. Mind Control and Mind Scan, however, could be used to control/find various other things, respectively.

    As with the original Class of Mind, any rules similar to that must be used with caution. Whether Classes of X constitutes a reason to buy an Adder, as in the official rules, an Advantage, or a Limitation I leave to other threads, as it is not germaine to this one.

    Classes of Mind are already covered well by the official rules, while Classes of Body were covered well by Chris Goodwin's earlier post.

    Classes of Spirit is a bit odd, and may not be very useful, as most entities of a purely spiritual nature would still have minds as they are usually conceived. However, there are such entities that might not: mindless ghosts forever repeating their last actions in life, revenants out for revenge, and spirits embodying some pure concept or emotion might not have minds in the traditional sense. Also, individuals with their minds somehow removed might nevertheless retain their spirit, as might spirits that have been "processed" and are ready for the next stage of their existence.

    Further, I propose that Mental Powers be allowed to work against any Primary Characteristic, chosen upon the Power being built. If that Characteristic is not possessed by a target that is nevertheless in the right Class of X, another appropriate Characteristic is chosen. No Limitation would be provided, and Based On CON would then be eliminated, its Limitation value split (and perhaps increased) by its limited range, more common defense, visibility, it targeting DCV rather than ECV, and it lacking Mental Awareness (though I'm assuming that relationship will be removed).
    Last edited by GamePhil; Feb 27th, '08 at 11:44 PM.
    Any Champions game can be improved by dropping Man Cactus into it.
    Any Fantasy HERO game can be improved by dropping the Hand of Doom Tavern into it.
    Any game can be improved by using the HERO system.

    6. Because I want my sentient binary load lifter.

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