Mental Powers, Senses, and Presence Attacks

[Hugh Neilson]

Except that it could show up in any setting. GM call whether or not to use it in his supers setting, his Psi Hero setting, his fantasy setting. About the only settings where you know it's not going to show up are those where there are no Mental Powers at all.

That pretty much says it all. This is properly a setting rule (perhaps meriting a brief "optional rule" discussion) and not a core rule which applies by default.

[SteveZilla]

I can't think of any genre where I can absolutely rule out all possible uses of Mental Powers.

Pulp Hero? Telepathy/Mind Control as the "Super Skill" of Hypnosis.
Dark Champions? Mental Illusions and Telepathy as drugs like LSD and Truth Serum.
Champions? Professor X, Gean Grey, Martian Manhunter, etc.
Fantasy Hero? The magic spell Telepathy comes to mind.
Star Hero? Pointy-Eared-Green-Blooded-Alien Mind Melds.

[Chris Goodwin]

I'm starting to look at, for Mind Control, using the Psychokinesis build from The Ultimate Mentalist. Essentially, Telekinesis that is Resisted By EGO with some additional seasoning to taste.

[SteveZilla]

I'm starting to look at, for Mind Control, using the Psychokinesis build from The Ultimate Mentalist. Essentially, Telekinesis that is Resisted By EGO with some additional seasoning to taste.

How would TK-ing someone's body around allow you to trigger their innate powers?

[Chris Goodwin]

How would TK-ing someone's body around allow you to trigger their innate powers?

That's pretty much the question, and why I haven't just wholeheartedly embraced the concept. I don't have a problem with the Power doing that or even with defining it as doing that, but there's that conceptual leap.

Now, some ideas: with Telekinesis, you could normally trigger a character's OAF Gun. There's nothing within the mechanics that says "You can trigger someone's OAF Gun with Telekinesis"; it's very much a SFX thing. It seems to me to be a pretty short step from that to "You can trigger other Powers."

You can, also, with Telekinesis, normally lift a person; with Mind Control-as-TK you couldn't, other than by triggering whatever innate Flight they possess.

Herein lies the problem; unless we expand the definition of Telekinesis we're essentially handwaving that it can do these things. And yet... the notion still appeals to me. I don't have a problem making the conceptual leap, but in theory I have to sell the notion to people who might.

Does it help if you think about it as Telekinesis that works on the target's mind rather than its body?

Alternate option: build a new Mind Control Power using the mechanics for Telekinesis as the basis. Problem is that we're more or less building a whole new Power; taking one Power construct that is pretty suitable as is (let's face it) and replacing it with one that we pretty much have to redesign.

[Vulcan]

Once you get into the mind, it becomes Mind Control, not TK.

Yes, there are certain powers builds that TK could conceiveable trigger. But pulling the trigger on an OAF gun is a far cry from triggering Johnny Storm's Nova Blast. Triggering someone else's power with TK is pretty much limited by special effect (grenade pin, anyone?).

My favorite was when a character used her TK to hit the 'magazine release' on the assault rifle her opponent was aiming at her, reducing his AF 5 to a single shot.

[Chris Goodwin]

Once you get into the mind, it becomes Mind Control, not TK.

I'm specifically looking at the Psychokinesis build in The Ultimate Mentalist, which pushes it into (maybe not across, but definitely into) the borderland between TK and Mind Control.

Yes, there are certain powers builds that TK could conceiveable trigger. But pulling the trigger on an OAF gun is a far cry from triggering Johnny Storm's Nova Blast. Triggering someone else's power with TK is pretty much limited by special effect (grenade pin, anyone?).

Sure, but in both cases it's "Telekinesis is used to trigger Power," and the difference is SFX. Like, the Mind Control couldn't trigger the gun on its own; it would need to force the victim to do it.

[SteveZilla]

That's pretty much the question, and why I haven't just wholeheartedly embraced the concept. I don't have a problem with the Power doing that or even with defining it as doing that, but there's that conceptual leap.

Now, some ideas: with Telekinesis, you could normally trigger a character's OAF Gun. There's nothing within the mechanics that says "You can trigger someone's OAF Gun with Telekinesis"; it's very much a SFX thing. It seems to me to be a pretty short step from that to "You can trigger other Powers."

You can, also, with Telekinesis, normally lift a person; with Mind Control-as-TK you couldn't, other than by triggering whatever innate Flight they possess.

Herein lies the problem; unless we expand the definition of Telekinesis we're essentially handwaving that it can do these things. And yet... the notion still appeals to me. I don't have a problem making the conceptual leap, but in theory I have to sell the notion to people who might.

Does it help if you think about it as Telekinesis that works on the target's mind rather than its body?

Alternate option: build a new Mind Control Power using the mechanics for Telekinesis as the basis. Problem is that we're more or less building a whole new Power; taking one Power construct that is pretty suitable as is (let's face it) and replacing it with one that we pretty much have to redesign.

So how does "Tk-ing the target's mind" to control their body not work as a Special Effect for the Mind Control power?

And regular TK can manipulate objects (though usually with less finess than is needed in combat -- like TK-wielding a sword). A gun is (usually) an OAF. An OAF is an object. How well you can aim & fire the gun w/ TK is usually up to the GM.

[Chris Goodwin]

So how does "Tk-ing the target's mind" to control their body not work as a Special Effect for the Mind Control power?

It doesn't. But the point (of this thread, at least) is to, in 6e, eliminate the mechanic whereby one rolls dice (for Telepathy, Mind Control, Presence Attacks, etc.) and compare them to CHA, CHA+10, CHA+20, etc. Which means it's necessary to come up with something to replace them. I think I've done a reasonable job at that using Enhanced Senses for Mind Scan and Telepathy, and by using Skills for Presence Attacks. Mental Illusions becomes a Power similar to Images (still iffy on whether to fold it into Images or to keep it out as its own Power that happens to work very similarly). For Mind Control, I'm looking at one of the following:

• a Skill that works via Telepathy
• a new Power that works very similarly to Images and the new Mental Illusions
• Psychokinesis as described in The Ultimate Mentalist (using Telekinesis)
• a new Power that works very similarly to Psychokinesis as written
• something else

So, this isn't a rules question of the form, "I want to control someone's mind; what Power should I use?" It's of the form, "I want to redesign the Mind Control Power. What works as a replacement?"

[GamePhil]

One question: if you want to eliminate the Mental Powrs construct, do you also want to change how Stun damage is handled? An odd question, I know, but there are similarities: both work at break points of exceeding the Charactristic by 10, 20, and 30, and cause certain behaviors at those points. Before the announcement for 6th Edition, I was working up the idea for combining the two somehow, so that you would only have one mechanic that could be applied to both.

For changing the mechanic to Telekinesis: It's just a matter of making Telekinesis like Mind Control is now, in that it might go against a Characteristic other than what it normally goes against. Like Mind Control might go against INT rather than EGO in some cases, you have Telekinesis that goes against Ego rather than STR. A chart for what you can do with the target based on how much you exceed his Char roll by with your Telekinesis would be handy: if you exceed it by 1, you can hold him (STR) or get him to do something he's not really much against (EGO), if you exceed it by 10 you can use him as a marionette (STR) and get him to break deeply held convictions (EGO). Or something like that.

Of course, it would be easy enough to do the same with Mental Powers as they stand, having Mind Control working against STR (or SIZ) to represent Telekinesis, but that's a different discussion.

[Chris Goodwin]

From the HERO System Discussion forum:

I believe Mental Illusions is the best mechanic for causing a single target to perceive a false reality.

Single target means that the ability is not sensory. It is affecting an individual via their mind (EGO) or other part of their body (CON).

Try to forget for a moment that the word "Mental" is part of the name of the power. An ability built with this power doesn't need to be based off ECV. It can use the Based on CON Limitation to fit any "non mental power" sfx.

It may be time to remove the phrase "Mental Power" from the Hero System lexicon.

We can have Powers that target ECV; we can have Powers resisted by Mental Defense; we can have Powers that have any kind of effect you can think of. But the whole "Mental Power / not a Mental Power" dichotomy is the worst offender of applying SFX to a mechanical construct.

Crossposted between "Mind Control and Mental Illusions" in HERO System Discussion and "Mental Powers, Senses, and Presence Attacks" in the 6e forum.

[schir1964]

Chris,

I've been thinking about other possible ways to do Mind Control aspect.

Perhaps we need to simulate the character's Mind by more substantive measures.

Ego: Grants DCV To Mental Attacks
Mental Defense: Grants Resistance To Mental Damage/Effect

What is missing is a measure that reflects a Mind's Threshold Levels that are akin to Body and Stun.

Perhaps there needs to be Figured attributes to reflect Mental Body and Mental Stun.

Once that is established, then you can a have Mind Control that wear away a persons Mental Stun/Body until they can reach a desired threshold that allows different levels of control of the mind.

Just An Idea (Probably mentioned before)

- Christopher Mullins

[Chris Goodwin]

Idea: Sensory Damage Shield

+1/2? More? I don't think it's worth much more than that. The Power affects anyone who can sense the user with a Sense chosen by the player. The Power can be easily avoided (by closing the eyes, plugging the ears, etc.) and does not affect targets via reflection or other indirect sensing methods (Clairsentience can be affected if it has the Feedback Limitation, or if the Power is specifically bought to affect Clairsentience such as Flash Clairsentience). The Power is reduced by 5 Active Points per point of PER penalty due to Range Modifier, and at the GM's option other penalties might apply as well.

This is primarily used for Sense Affecting Powers such as Flash, or Mental Powers such as Mind Control and Telepathy. It can also be used for other Powers at the GM's option (Medusa's ability to turn targets to stone could be based on this).

[Klaus Mogensen]

Idea: Sensory Damage Shield.

I used something like that for a Fantasy Hero character some years ago, in order to simulate a limited kind of invisibility. It was something like Drain PER, only to notice character, Damage Shield triggered by being looked at.

I went on to make a more generic write-up of Damage Shield. "Vs. ranged attacks" increased the advantage, while "non-damaging effect" reduced it drastically. Or some such. I think I had a general "punishment should fit the deed" requirement, so you couldn't have a Damage Shield that did physical damage if people just looked at you. OTOH, you could make a Damage Shield that did mental damage to EGO attackers. It might be worth looking into that again.

- Klaus

[BobGreenwade]

Idea: Sensory Damage Shield

This shouldn't be too hard to model off things like Sight Range/Hearing Range/Smell Range.