Size of the Rulebook

[Balabanto]

A number of game store owners in my area have suggested to me this.

Mike...you sort of know these guys and freelance for Digital Hero. Please tell them this:

The book needs to be smaller. There are many people who are intimidated by the rulebook the size of an algebra textbook. There needs to be a way to make things smaller, compact, and more understandable.

Another way to do this might be to release the "Hero System Player's Guide."

Then, deal with the gm's side of the rules in a larger book that also contains character generation. This is what I've been told by multiple game store owners.

[Lord Liaden]

As I understand it, current plans are to divide Sixth Edition into two books, with all the Character Generation stuff (including Powers) in one book, and the game mechanics, play examples, and prebuilds in the other. So, each book is likely to be noticeably smaller than either version of Fifth Edition.

In the meantime, perhaps you could suggest to those game store owners that they order a few copies of Sidekick.

[Beast]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

doing a something like Sidekick and adding all the powers,skills,etc that were left out
might add 20 pages and charging 20 to 25$ that I see is what is needed

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

[Lord Liaden]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

doing a something like Sidekick and adding all the powers,skills,etc that were left out
might add 20 pages and charging 20 to 25$ that I see is what is needed

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

A HERO System Basic book a la Sidekick is indeed planned for Sixth Edition. On the proposed 2009 publication schedule, it's the first book due for release after 6E.

[Klaus Mogensen]

Something that can easily be left out of the new book is advice on converting and "grandfathering" characters from the previous edition. In a modern world, such information belongs on a website, not in a book.

In 5e, Talents have write-ups that tell how they are constructed from Powers. I also find that information unnecessary for most players.

I also believe that many of the Power descriptions can be shortened considerably without losing information. Two pages in 5e for e.g. Force Wall seems overly long - in 4e, it wasn't much more than one column. Extra-Dimensional Movement has also grown from less than one column to a full page (IN M&M2, it's just 11 lines!). Entangle has grown from one page to 2½ pages. These are just random samples. I wouldn't be surprised if the Power descriptions have grown again in 5er.

Detailed descriptions on how the general advantages and limitations are applied to a specific Power suggests a lack of confidence in the intelligence and imagination of the GM and the players. Does it matter that every single group plays every single Power-advantage combination the exact same way? No.

There is such a thing as too much support, I think. Players new to the system (and some that are familiar) will be put off by these lengthy descriptions: "Do I have to read all that for every single power? Forget it, let's play M&M instead!" (This is what both my old Champions groups have decided to do).

In addition to shortening the Power descriptions, some streamlining of the system will help as well. I think this can be done without losing flexibility - in some cases it may even add to flexibility. See e.g. my suggestion for a simple Power Framework, which replaces Elemental Control, Multipower and Variable Power Pool and at the same time adds more flexibility than it takes away.

Armor and Force Field can easily be combined into a single Power. Killing Attacks can be an advantage on normal attacks, getting rid of a die-roll type that isn't used elsewhere in the game. Persistant and Uncontrolled are similar enough to be combined. Etc., etc.

To quote Antoine de Saint-Exupery: "Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."

________________
Klaus Æ. Mogensen

[Hugh Neilson]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

Yeah, I can't see any game selling if you need two $30 books to play it. I bet no one would ever play this game:

first required book

second required book

third required book

No smaller intro book I can see, but you can get all three together for a price only marginally greater than the sum of its parts.

The fact is that the hobby has evolved over the years, and players now do tend to value all that extra explanation. Part of this is the need to attract the CCG crowd, and they're very familiar with the concept of formal rulings as to how various combinations interact. We gamers who still believe in GM Judgment are dinosaurs to some extent.

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

You only need the character generation book to generate characters. That's true of Hero and that no-name system I doubt anyone's ever heard of that I link to above.

[Hugh Neilson]

The fact is that the hobby has evolved over the years, and players now do tend to value all that extra explanation. Part of this is the need to attract the CCG crowd, and they're very familiar with the concept of formal rulings as to how various combinations interact. We gamers who still believe in GM Judgment are dinosaurs to some extent.

ADDENDUM: We're also unlikely to be the target demographic of any "for profit" game company. Gamers who are OK with using their own group or GM judgment don't need to buy a bunch more books expanding on areas that aren't detailed in the main rules, because they can simply rely on judgment to resolve these issues. If you were a game company, would you rather target guys who can get by happily on just the core rules, or gamers that want every issue answered for them?

HINT: Which group will buy more books?

[Balabanto]

The idea of a single power framework is nice, but the truth of the matter is that the system is mathematically designed to NOT work that way. Unless Steve changes ALL the math, you will never get that system.

All of Hero is based around having offense, defense, and movement. If you have only a single framework, it is impossible to properly allocate or balance the numbers. It took me ten years to codify how I wanted the numbers balanced for Hero, in a technical, clear form, and I'm happy with it.

The thing is that the math in Hero is designed to support the frameworks that it has. If you change the frameworks, you have to change ALL the math.

[Klaus Mogensen]

The idea of a single power framework is nice, but the truth of the matter is that the system is mathematically designed to NOT work that way. Unless Steve changes ALL the math, you will never get that system.

All of Hero is based around having offense, defense, and movement. If you have only a single framework, it is impossible to properly allocate or balance the numbers. It took me ten years to codify how I wanted the numbers balanced for Hero, in a technical, clear form, and I'm happy with it.

The thing is that the math in Hero is designed to support the frameworks that it has. If you change the frameworks, you have to change ALL the math.

The single framework in question is designed to closely mimic the cost of existing frameworks. There are some differences; some things will be a bit more expensive, other things a bit cheaper, but rarely more than a few points.

I really doubt that it will require changing "all the math". If anything, it will mean that it won't take new players 10 years to codify the numbers, since there is just a single framework rather than three different ones that are used for more or less the same thing.

- Klaus

[CTaylor]

I think that complaining about book numbers and costs with how willing people are to buy D20 books by the cartload is a bit odd.

[Narthon]

Maybe I'm in the minority, but I bought 5th edition books by the cartload too...

Anyway, I really like my impressive 5th edition core books. I hope 6th is just as big.

[Vondy]

5th ed is 50$
splitting it into 2 book that are both going to cost around 30$ each is not the solution
together they will still be a big book

doing a something like Sidekick and adding all the powers,skills,etc that were left out
might add 20 pages and charging 20 to 25$ that I see is what is needed

it is nice to have all the examples but most beginning players want to be able to start generating characters in an hour or 2
maybe some online flow charts to help out those who need it

I see it as you use the Sidekick sized to get them hook on playing and the FREd sized book to expand their knowledge

I tend to agree. If you include all skills, powers, and frameworks in sidekick and print it you have the ideal core rule book. Examples and advice can be put in the Big Book of Long, or GMs handbook, or whatever. Its too big and too verbose at present, and two rule-books will make it harder to sell than having it all in one. Just my 2AP.

[GeekySpaz]

I think a system that actually handled this well is the 4th edition of GURPS. All character creation and a very basic version of the combat rules are in the first book which is the only book that the players need and the second book contained all the advanced rules for combat and advanced rules for character creation. Only GMs need the second book.

If all players need to buy is a single 30-40$ smaller book I think that will be less intimidating and with the advanced stuff included in a GM book could include all the options to satisfy the toolkiters out there.

[Klaus Mogensen]

I think the book can be made much thinner if the descriptions of powers and skills are made less verbiose. Powers that took half a page to explain in 4e typically takes 1-2 pages in 5e, and it's not because the Powers have changed that much.

4e: 64 Powers; 39 pages in Powers chapter.
5e: 65 Powers; 89 pages in Powers chapter.
Haven't got 5er, but I think the ratio is even worse there.

If the length of the descriptions can be cut to one-third or less, I don't mind a little elasticity in interpretation. After all, Hero should be a tool for creativity, not a barrier against it.

- Klaus

[Trebuchet]

I think the book can be made much thinner if the descriptions of powers and skills are made less verbiose. Powers that took half a page to explain in 4e typically takes 1-2 pages in 5e, and it's not because the Powers have changed that much.

4e: 64 Powers; 39 pages in Powers chapter.
5e: 65 Powers; 89 pages in Powers chapter.
Haven't got 5er, but I think the ratio is even worse there.

If the length of the descriptions can be cut to one-third or less, I don't mind a little elasticity in interpretation. After all, Hero should be a tool for creativity, not a barrier against it.

I think the expanded explanations were an excellent idea; and were done primarily to answer common questions and give sufficient explanation of each Power.

They might be streamlined slightly, but cutting them by 2/3 would be another step in the wrong direction.