Flash, Flash Defense, Cost Vs. Value

[Vondy]

I have an issue.

I haven't used a flash attack since 4th edition.

The new method seems to make flash attacks uber-effective in that they can have several turns worth of effect on moderate dice amounts.

In of itself that's not too bothersome - a bit, but not too much.

My issue is a different one: it inflates (significantly) the amount of flash defense you need.

As a result, are you really getting value for what you pay for the flash defense?

Or, are you paying more for defense against what amounts to a once in a blue moon and somewhat unbalanced flash attack effect ratio (in an experiential, value oriented sense)?

I'm not sure; would like some feedback from people who have experience with them in play - and with building characters with flash defense under the new schema.

[Starlight]

The new method seems to make flash attacks uber-effective in that they can have several turns worth of effect on moderate dice amounts.

This sentence makes me wonder if you are using the total on the dice for the duration rather than the Body rolled? On average 12D6 of Flash will result in twelve (12) segments of flash duration rather than several turns.

[Vondy]

This sentence makes me wonder if you are using the total on the dice for the duration rather than the Body rolled? On average 12D6 of Flash will result in twelve (12) segments of flash duration rather than several turns.

I haven't used them at all. However, I was thinking "total rolled" and not "body rolled." That pretty much clears it up.

[Hugh Neilson]

My issue is a different one: it inflates (significantly) the amount of flash defense you need.

As a result, are you really getting value for what you pay for the flash defense?

I prefer the new system. Under the old model, you rolled 1d6/10 points and blinded for BOD phases. The new model blinds for BOD segments at 1d6/5 points. 6d6 old got you for a turn at 6 SPD, more at lower SPD and less at higher SPD. 12d6 new lasts 1 turn regardless of SPD. Flash is more powerful at high power/SPD levels, but less at the heroic range, now.

I like what it has done for flash defense. Before, 5 points dramatically reduced the effectiveness of Flash and 10 points pretty much eliminated it. Now, 5 points shaves off some of the pain, 10 points makes it pretty short term, and 15 points means you're generally safe, so there's some granularity.

[Lord Mhoram]

There is something else to consider as well...

On a flash, you can get a second sense group for an extra 5 points (in general) - but you have to define which sense flash D works against, so say you have 15 pts sight flash D (a lot I know) to stop a 12d6 flash. The attacker pays an extra 5 pts to get you hearing, but you have to spend 15 more points to stop it.

[Vondy]

There is something else to consider as well...

On a flash, you can get a second sense group for an extra 5 points (in general) - but you have to define which sense flash D works against, so say you have 15 pts sight flash D (a lot I know) to stop a 12d6 flash. The attacker pays an extra 5 pts to get you hearing, but you have to spend 15 more points to stop it.

Could I take the Multiple SFX advantage on my flash defense to even out the cost disparity?

It might seem like a dink move, but the notion of being able to purchase an additional 12d6 flash that requires a separate defense (for all intensive purposes) for 5 points strikes me as being hard-coded dink-fu. Unintentional, but there. At least with foci doubling at 5 points its the same attack and you don't have to purchase your defenses again to guard against it. And you generally need some skills to use them effectively at one time, which also serves to balance it out a bit. This - with the flashes - strikes me as being a major balance disconnect.

That, or, allow flash defense to have a multiple sense adder at +3 per sense.

[Lord Mhoram]

That, or, allow flash defense to have a multiple sense adder at +3 per sense.

The reason I mentioned it, is that it came up a number of sessions ago. We were thinking exactly the same solution.

[Vondy]

The reason I mentioned it, is that it came up a number of sessions ago. We were thinking exactly the same solution.

Great Minds...

[Kenn]

With the change of Flash in 5th edition, though, the value of Flash Defense was lessened. Under 4th edition rules, 5 pt. of Flash Defense protected one for 5 phases. for most characters, this was about a turn. (Longer if you were a 4 or less SPD, not as long if you were 6 SPD or higher.) Now that same 5 pt.s of Flash Defense protects you for 5 segments worth of time. That could be anywhere from 1 to 3 phases, typically. To get comparable defense, one would need 10 or 12 pts. of flash defense.

[Silbeg]

I definitely like the 5E version of Flash much better. The only place where I have concerns are the stacking of senses... For a very small cost (basically the cost of a die), you turn a 12d6 Flash vs. Sight (which is tough, but not insurmountable) into an 11d6 "Flash Bang" Flash vs Sight Group and Hearing Group... thus nullifying most characters' primary targeting sense, and primary non-targeting sense.

I have felt for quite a while that stacking the senses is too cheap.. while the mechanism for Flashes are actually much better (BODY -> Segments instead of Phases).

To me, a Flash vs. Sight Group + Hearing Group is really an MPA....
So, the above would be better expressed as: 7d6 Flash vs. Sight Group + 7d6 Flash vs. Hearing Group (this would be 54 AP).

You would probably link the two each other (it is legal to doubly-link powers)... and there you go. A much more balanced build, in my opinion.

[mattingly]

The extra cost for additional senses is per die. So instead of a 12d6 Slight Flash, you would get the 7d6 combined Flash.

[Starlight]

The extra cost for additional senses is per die. So instead of a 12d6 Slight Flash, you would get the 7d6 combined Flash.

An interesting idea, and with suitably adjusted costs might possibly be an improvement on the rules as written. However at this time you're wrong. The Flash Summary Table on p 176 of 5ER is split into two sections. The top section gives costs per D6. The lower section where extra senses are referred gives costs as Adders.

[Silbeg]

The extra cost for additional senses is per die. So instead of a 12d6 Slight Flash, you would get the 7d6 combined Flash.

Dave,
I am not sure where you are getting that from (unless you are suggesting a house rule). Per 5ER 176, it seems pretty clear to me that it is an adder to the power, not an adder to the per die cost. Hero Designer also seems to back this interpretation up.

I would love more insight, if you have it.

Thanks!

[Hugh Neilson]

With the change of Flash in 5th edition, though, the value of Flash Defense was lessened. Under 4th edition rules, 5 pt. of Flash Defense protected one for 5 phases. for most characters, this was about a turn. (Longer if you were a 4 or less SPD, not as long if you were 6 SPD or higher.) Now that same 5 pt.s of Flash Defense protects you for 5 segments worth of time. That could be anywhere from 1 to 3 phases, typically. To get comparable defense, one would need 10 or 12 pts. of flash defense.

Agreed. However, I would say that Flash Defense was overly effective before, so the value reduction is a positive, not a negative. It was too cheap to buy virtual immunity to Flash attacks when compared to the cost of, say, adjustment power defenses or mental power defenses.

[NestorDRod]

Personally, I don't like the 5e rule, since it makes anything but very high-dice Flashes pretty much ineffective.

So, my character succeeds in Flashing someone for 3 segments. Unless the target is Speed 6 or higher, he'll lose maybe one action tops (and that if it occurs at just the right point in the Speed Chart). OK, so during that time, the target is DCV 0. Unfortunately, unless my PC has a Speed 5 or higher, he won't get to take advantage of that on his next action before the target recovers.

Essentially, you lose the ability to enact the classic action-movie scene of throwing a flash-bang into the room and rushing in to take out the disabled mooks.

Recovering by Segments deviates from the norm in the game. If I damage someone, they heal at a rate based on their REC. If I Transform someone, they recover in a similar manner. But if I affect a Sense, everyone recovers at the same rate?

People complained about Flash being overpowered, which IIRC is why the automatic Area Effect was removed in 4e. With this change now, Flash has become pretty much a waste of points.