Special Effects VS Rules

[greypaladin_01]

Just a quick question that has come up in our current Champs game. My co-GM and I are discussing it but I wanted to get some input from everyone here.

Just where does the special effects of a power end and needing to spend points on an effect begin?

Example 1: a PC water using energy projector arrives at a burning building. She does not have a Dispel (Fire) power slot but wants to try put out a small section of fire to allow trapped persons to run out the cleared path.

By The Rules: You cannot do this because you do not have the correct power.

By Special Effects: Water can put out fire. I would say maybe allow a 1/2 active point of the water EB to be used as a suppress or dispel.

Example 2: A character with and Entangle defined as Solid Light (think something along the lines of Green Lantern) or sticky webs (like spider man) wants to Entangle another character in two ways.

The first - energy chains pinning a character between two trees. They do not want them to be able to fly away.

The second - The sticky webs are used to entangle a character to the wall (similar to the picture under the Entangle power in the 5th Revised Rule Book)

By The Rules: I belive the Entangle does not hamper movement powers in anyway although they will not free the character (except Teleport)

By Special Effects: If a character has enough strength or movement power (like Flight) to break the trees or the wall they are stuck to they can still move but might not have broken the entangle.

Does this makes sense to anyone else... what would the rest of you do in these situations?

Thank you for any suggestions you have in this matter.

[ghost-angel]

See my answer in the other forum.

[greypaladin_01]

I'll check there... thank you

[Narratio]

First case I'd say it would be good role playing to allow the water power to be used like that. Whennthe game is over get with the player and work out how to make this more regular. Turn the water blast into a multipower or an elemental effect with lots of slots, some of then unidentified perhaps?

Some entangle do hamper movement, some don't. Full body webbing to a wall will stop running but not anti-grav based floating. So the answer I think is "it depends".

(Now I'll go check what ghost-angel wrote)

[Trebuchet]

Fire is not a Power; it is a condition or environment. There's absolutely no reason a character must have Suppress Fire or the like to put out a fire. It's a terrible trap to get into a mode of thinking which implies that a character has to have Powers to accomplish things people in real life accomplish without superpowers; and this doesn't just apply to things like fighting fire.

Look at all the ways fire get put out in the real world: water hoses and buckets, application of sand or dirt, beating with blankets (if it's still small), fire extinguishers, halon gas, counter-fires. Do you think blankets or sand or water would be built with Suppress Fire? As any Boy Scout knows, fires need 3 things to burn: Heat, oxygen, and fuel. Deprive it of any of those and the fire will go out.

We've allowed a character with a Force Wall to cover a fire with it and thus extinguish the fire through lack of oxygen.

[Dr Archeville]

Look at all the ways fire get put out in the real world: water hoses and buckets, application of sand or dirt, beating with blankets (if it's still small), fire extinguishers, halon gas, counter-fires. Do you think blankets or sand or water would be built with Suppress Fire?

In a game system where a flashlight is built as Images, the answer would seem to be "yes".

[Trebuchet]

In a game system where a flashlight is built as Images, the answer would seem to be "yes".

See, that's exactly my point. I don't know anyone who actually builds flashlights except for fun in their games. Everyone just says "It's a flashlight" and proceeds from there. We all know what a flashlight does.

IOW: The fact one can build a spoon in Hero doesn't mean one should.

[ghost-angel]

See, that's exactly my point. I don't know anyone who actually builds flashlights except for fun in their games. Everyone just says "It's a flashlight" and proceeds from there. We all know what a flashlight does.

IOW: The fact one can build a spoon in Hero doesn't mean one should.

My current Champions game I play a Mystic with a Magic Item VPP.

I built a flashlight half as a joke.

Turned out dang useful (of course the Magic Flashlight has a Flash Attack. . .). Actually it's turned out to be the most effective weapon in my arsenal (mostly because the mystic can't hit a target to save her life).

On the other side of that, our speedster has a Tazer - no points, no build. Just a tazer.

Images is how you *CAN* build a Flashlight. But it's not needed in the slightest.

[Trebuchet]

On the other side of that, our speedster has a Tazer - no points, no build. Just a tazer.

Images is how you *CAN* build a Flashlight. But it's not needed in the slightest.

In our Dark Champions campaign one of the PCs uses a taser as her only weapon and off-the-shelf motocross padding and helmet for protection. She's got money, but no access to more sophisticated or advanced armor and weapons.

[Cardinal]

I think the answer is that if one character paid for the Fire (i.e. EB), than another would need to pay points to stop it (i.e. suppress). However, if the fire is just that -- some kindling, a spark and oxygen -- than anyone with a SFX that could impact on it (i.e. Treb's FW, sandman, water lad, or someone with an NND based on sucking the oxygen out), should be able to put the fire out.

YMMV