Simplify!

[Alcamtar]

My only real request: please simplify the game.

I started with first edition FH ('85) and then moved on to 4th edition. I remember telling people the thing I liked best about Hero was that it had a small concise metasystem from which everything else was built. The core game was simple enough to commit to memory, and pretty much everything else I needed as a GM I could make up on the fly, off the top of my head.

I can't say that any more. In fact nowadays I tell people I like Hero, but it's a pretty heavy game and I'm not sure it's worth the effort. I think long and hard, and consider all my options, before committing to a Hero game now. These days I usually play Hero for a session or two at a time, for the novelty and/or nostalgia of it, before I get tired of the effort and encumbrance and want to switch to something else.

To a degree, this is because I am no longer a college student with endless hours to devote to it; I have a family and lots of things competing for time and energy. That's my problem, and maybe I'm out of sync with the Hero core audience.

But it is also true the 5E is much "heavier" than previous editions. It has become so loaded down with clarifications, exceptions, and explanations that it is hard to keep track of it all. I am reluctant to make any GM rulings for fear that I might contradict something I missed in the book, or one of the official errata/FAQ rulings. It is hard to even find things I need, to say nothing of memorizing the rules. Things like Talents that used to be simple are now fully statted out powers, and there are a more of them. Powers have a bewildering array of options and modifiers, and everything is precisely defined down to the gnats eyebrow. The melee weapons list used to have a symmetry that made it easy to remember; now everything is unique and you have to refer to the table. These are just examples; none of them is bad in itself, but combined they are like straws on the proverbial dromedary's back.

Additionally, the game balance has shifted. Characters of a given point total from 4E or earlier eras are just plain underpowered compared with 5E characters. It's not raw power, it's that you can now do things and combine things in new ways. Again not necessarily bad, but as a longtime fan, it is a subtle incompatibility with the game I fell in love with.

I have only one real complaint about the current rules: the "5 pt principle" principle seems to be gradually eroding, especially the idea that every 5 pts. is double the effect. This impacts both balance and simplicity. One advantage Hero always had over GURPS was that Hero was logarithmic, while GURPS was linear. Now GURPS is becoming logarithmic, while HERO is becoming more linear.

I still like Hero, and I like 5E, or I wouldn't be here. In general I like the changes and additions. But I felt that 4E as "perfect" in terms of complexity and weight. I would like to see the current rules (or an improved version of them) slimmed and edited down to something analogous to the 4E core rulebook.

Something to consider: Hero has always been the go-to game for truly flexible and universal rules; simplicity and playability were the accepted tradeoffs. Plus 5E didn't look so cumbersome compared to GURPS and 3.X D&D. That is changing. Streamlined and playable games are in vogue, and they continue incorporating ideas from Hero. One might ask: "what is good enough, and what is overkill?"

Anyway that's my perspective.

[Vulcan]

I have to disagree with you. I started playing HERO System with a die-hard 3E fan, and moved on to a 4E group a bit later. When 5E came out, we were a bit sceptical - it was a large amount of money to shell out for one book.

After reading through it, we all picked it up. Granted, only two of us subsequently picked up 5ER - one was our primary GM, and the other missed the 5E release.

The added information in 5E clarified sooooo many things that had caused problems for us in 4E. Even with all the extra content, things are simple to find (there is a VERY generous index in the back, did you notice?), and it was all-around an improvement on 4E in our opinion.

I am hoping for the same result in 6E as well - well, hopefully not adding another 100 pages of book - but clarifying rules interations.

As opposed to just simplifying them.

[Klaus Mogensen]

The added information in 5E clarified sooooo many things that had caused problems for us in 4E.

As I see it, there are two ways of clarifying rules:

1. Explaining in detail how the rules should be interpreted
2. Actually making the rules themselves clearer

I would prefer method nr. 2, even if it means that some rules must be changed because they cannot be described clearly and briefly as is.

- Klaus

[Vulcan]

So long as the granualrity that halmarks the HERO System doesn't suffer, then I agree. But the granularity is what makes HERO System what it is. Without that, it becomes a GURPS clone. And I'm sure none of us want that.

[psychoticbarber]

I want to pick up on the logarithmic versus linear comment from above. I think this is very important. So many game scale linearly, like D&D, Gurps, the White Wolf games...I think it's important to keep Hero different on that scale. I'm a big fan of the normal distribution (aka Bell Curve), and I'm a big fan of the idea that adding five points doubles the effect (or 15, in the case of a larger attack, or whatever the base is). If we stick to the design idea that a defense must be cheaper and more plentiful than the attack it defends against, we can afford to have the power scale so sharply, because the defenses scale even more sharply.

I hope to goodness that made sense.

[Beast]

wait for the basic rule book it will be the side kick replacement

is about as simple as you will get and still be playing Hero system
we hope

[Vulcan]

I hope it won't be THAT simple.

[mdock2003]

I'm just disappointed that I finally got my group to agree to try 5er(they are still reading the book) and there is a 6e planned. I've just managed to get them over the 3e-4e D&D transition and now I have to tell them that if they like 5er Hero, a 6e is in the works.
Honestly now that we are planning to dive in to 5er I will be kind of stingy with the supplements I buy. No sense in falling into the 3eD&D trap and buying over $1000 worth of books only to find that I now have to replace them or continue playing a system the manufacturer will no longer support. Though in all fairness there are 3e supplements like Wheel of Time, d20 modern and MC'sWOD that we will probably continue to play.

However I do hope that the 6e book is streamlined some. Since we are new to the system, other than playing Champions long ago, the 5er book was quite intimidating and the main reason my group refused to play. They started talking about how they wanted to play something other than straight fantasy (D&D) and I brought up all the systems I own. Then I gave them detailed descriptions of what each system was capable of and they picked Hero on their own. I was sure they would go with True 20, they love the d20 system, but I won't deny that I was glad they picked Hero. I have been wanting to sink my teeth into the game, so to speak, since I bought it last year.

[Vulcan]

I think once you use it a bit, HEROs will become just as easy to use as d20. Perhaps even easier; you're learing how to use all the rules in the main book, rather than having all the rules spread out over $1000 in books.

[mdock2003]

I sure hope you are right. We have spent so many years playing d20 exclusively, except for Serenity which we've only played a handful of times, that I feel we may be a bit spoiled to that system.

I am definitely game for Hero and wanted to pick it up when I first saw it at Gen Con several years ago, but the group(s) has been pretty leery about the other systems out there. It is an intimidating game system, but I think it is much better than Rifts, which I found to have a very steep learning curve. I have nothing against Rifts, the setting is great and the books are an amazing place to get ideas, but the organization of the rules leaves me scratching my head. I don't get that same vibe from Hero.

The sad part is that I have bought the books for over a dozen systems ( I lump D&D, Star Wars, Wheel of Time and d20 Modern under one game system) and have only played 2... maybe 3 of them because my group(s) wouldn't change. I don't see Hero replacing D&D, I love the game as much as my players, but Hero seems to have so much potential. It would be so nice to play any genre that we want and not have to memorize several different systems. Then again if they like the Hero fantasy it may replace D&D. you never know.
My only concern with Hero, from a DM/GM stand point is the fact I will need to buy so many other books, unless I want to take the time to create every monster and NPC that I use. I do not like that aspect of it. Prep time is a factor and I like being able to just grab my MM or DMG to find what I need ready made for me in a pinch. Actually I've come to depend on the fact I can just adlib a game and take monsters/villians straight from the core books.
I may change my tune once I get into the system, after all I spent a small fortune on D&D, but that is a game I have been playing for around 20 years, so I thought little of it.
I guess what I want is the versatility of Hero with the simplicity of D&D... can't have it all.

[AnotherSkip]

My only concern with Hero, from a DM/GM stand point is the fact I will need to buy so many other books, unless I want to take the time to create every monster and NPC that I use. I do not like that aspect of it. Prep time is a factor and I like being able to just grab my MM or DMG to find what I need ready made for me in a pinch. Actually I've come to depend on the fact I can just adlib a game and take monsters/villians straight from the core books.
I may change my tune once I get into the system, after all I spent a small fortune on D&D, but that is a game I have been playing for around 20 years, so I thought little of it.
I guess what I want is the versatility of Hero with the simplicity of D&D... can't have it all.

Actually with Hero there are very simple things to keep in mind,
1. there are good resources, HSB (Beastiary=MM), USPD (Until Super Powers Database) Fantasy Hero=DMG/PHB, main book= better than DMG+PHB, and just because we are better thatn D&D we upped them a letter by making the MMM (Monsters Minions and Maruders= MM+).
2. Change the SFX/names and you have new critters/opponents.
Orcs vs humans have huge MM writeups but the stats are not that different, go easy and that tribe of Orcs is like the band of Berzerkers, make the Flavor different absolutely but really, statwise you don't need much.

[Steve Long]

To the extent this is an appropriate subject for this board, it belongs in an established thread, probably "General Issues."