A question of power level

[Atomic Ray]

Greetings,

First time caller long time listener...been playing champions since first printing first edition.

A question came up recently on another forum dealing with miniatures and RPGs in regards to superheroing and low powered games. Apparently the GM in question had issues with his group basically demanding more points. The GM had a sound idea for a lower level game setting and the characters while low powered, 75-125pts total, would still be the cream and not the side kicks of 500pt mega heroes. So the game is off.

My thought is this, and it has come up many times in the past as I am a defender of all things non-rules lawyering, point cheating, and number crunching....why not low powered games?

After all it is the idea of the hero that binds the story not the points, right?

Atomic Ray
"Elder hero from the Age of Steam, inventor, two fisted, and aging 1:25yrs...currently looks 45 but is much older"

[Trebuchet]

My only objection, such as it is, is that 150 points is where we play Pulp Hero, so 125 points supers are rather low-powered and possibly only barely worthy of the name "super" although it's certainly possible to have powers at that level.

In a situation such as you describe, I'd look to establish some sort of compromise. It doesn't do the GM any good to have a good low powered setting if his players all want something with more oomph but obviously it has to be something the GM is willing to run.

And welcome to the Hero boards. There are a lot of long-time players here. I've been playing since 1993 myself.

[CrosshairCollie]

Different people like different styles of games. While a 125 point character may be 'the cream', as you say, a normal punk with a .22 can probably still put a world of hurt on him, and some folks don't like that ... like me. I like my supers bulletproof, to the point where I simply have a game rule: A Normal Person Can Not Hurt A Super With A Standard Weapon. I don't even bother rolling.

It may be a fine story, but that doesn't mean it's one everybody's going to want to participate in. A GM without a game is not a GM; the style of game, game world, game power level and so forth need to be things everybody can enjoy.

[Shigeru]

To put this in comparison, the first edition of Heroes Unlimited by Palladium games was such that characters hade ONE power. THat power made a big difference, but didn't make people into superheroes by default.

THe big difference-maker in that game was education. You might have super strength, but if all you could manage to do was graduate high school and get a job at McDonalds, you had limitations. Whereas someone with Specialized Military Training,. or a Masters Degree, actually had a wealth of flexibility, even if thier power was "super hearing". It was a very different look at roleplaying.

THis 125pt Supers game sounds similar. One power might be affordable, but all of a sudden the guy with Comnbat Driving or Stealth or 10 points in Martial Arts has a big advantage over those that don't. THe pints go a lot farther in defining ones strengths and weaknesses.

THe test of that theory, of course, lies inthe GM. Can they promote a fun time for all players, maintain balance, give characters a challenge without rolling right over them? THat's the true experiment.

[Atomic Ray]

The potential for a common thug to injure a hero goes far beyond a .22cal or if said thug is unable to cause or affect a hero; the same .22cal put your superhero's girlfriend, mom, best friend, or a common citizen plucked off the street...superman can be hurt by a single .22cal clearly.

So in the end it is somewhat insulting to consider the real heroes in our world who do great things with 50pts at best...so in context give that heroic cop another 75pts and you have a superhero.

I think it has a great deal to do with the games we started with. My first superhero game was the original V&V where you where a normal person with one power much like the majority of the characters on TV's Heroes.

In a city full of blind men the one eyed man is king.

I appreciate the inputs either way, the point is actually moot as it is not my game.

I have run many a lower point game and they were all fun, challenging, and they did not miss the planet throwing powers.

Consider the real question that we all ask our selves, if you could have any one power what would it be? Once you have answered...flight, bulletproof, strength, etc...then ask yourself what would you do with the power? Do you whine and whimper that there isn't enough power(s) to be worth the effort or would you do something with it? Heroes work through the process by effort not by number crunching and lists of abilities.

Would you steal, would you be selfish, would you cheat? Heroes are by their nature cursed because they most often do not have a choice, they have to do the right thing regardless if they have any bullets left or if the building is on fire. Get that same guy a power or double his strength or improve his skills by 100% and you will have a superhero...IMO.

I am no hero and I suspect I would be a terrible super, because I am not that strong to put my family aside for strangers but I would try...and by trying I would earn my chance to be heroic and noble, and that would be super.

Power gamers have poisoned the industry to the point that we can never go back. The starting characters have to be planet smashers, cosmic knights, and avatars of Suns. Gone forever is the chance to be a hero, now there is only a pile of numbers, lists of skills, and a laundry list of powers.

I would welcome a decent group of players to run a game but I am not interested in the current vein of everyone starting the game as green lantern/superman/etc. equals.

But my 5 minutes on the soapbox are done.

Thanks again.

Atomic Ray

[Pattern Ghost]

I think it could be a problem of players bringing a preconceived character notion into the game (often a retired character with godly point totals), instead of thinking of a concept that would fit the game the GM wants to run.

I've known people who love to pull out their favorite character and try to use it for every new game they play in. I think it's a sign of laziness, and disrespectful to the GM. If the GM can make a world, I have no problem with making just one character to fit into that world.

Then again, they may not have wanted to play lower point total supers. Different folks for different folks. I personally think such games have a lot of appeal. Though I'd go with a 150 total rather than 125, as the 125 just seems an odd number. Not that I'm saying it was arbitrary, just not one of the "usual" point totals used.

[steamteck]

Our groups aren't planet crushers either but they are definitely larger than life. My fantasy players want too be Conan or Aragorn equivalents not the normal person thrust unto a Hero's position. nothing wrong with the other approach. Thats just their preference. If we're playing pulp they want to be over the top like the Shadow,Phantom or Doc Savage. If we're playing superheroes they want a level they can't have the other games/ Again that's what they want. I think the GM and players needed more communication about expectations and maybe he needed to package it differently.

[BNakagawa]

If you look at the very early days of superheros, you could get away with it.

I mean, look at the early xmen. Cyclops had one power. Angel had one power.

More recently, every character's gotta be able to solo.

How else are you going to get your own book?

[Atomic Ray]

That is the rub isn't it? Communication between the GM and players. The funny part of the story is that the GM is question is the regular DM for the long running D&D group who begged for the GM to provide a Champions game for the group...his one request was to make a lower level super world and the characters would be novices. After weeks of preparation and communication with said group, mutiny.

And that is where the question of low end gaming resurfaced.

To be truthful I do not mind the high end point games, but and it is a huge see it coming from a mile away butt, I prefer the focus of one power or at the very least a tight theme. Super Strong Guy that is stronger than any 10 other strong supers...cool. The same guy with said strength, and FTL flight, and invunerable, and instant regeneration, and laser beam eyes, and...en infinitum at nausium...is not ok.

The everything super is lame, anoying, chickenshite, and just plain weak.

Ah well to each his own. Power gamers buy games, cry the loudest, and the cycle continues.

Thanks again for the inputs.

Atomic Ray

[Bloodstone]

Well, in addition to expectations, it also comes down to character building philosophy and a sense of scale.

I've played in games where an 18 DEX is treated as an unreal degree of grace and coordination the likes of which no man alive in the real world could ever hope to obtain. And I've played in games where a "bulky, slow moving" Brick had an 18 DEX.

One can also easily bloat the points on just about any concept by stating out trivial bits and minutia...

The everything super is lame, anoying, chickenshite, and just plain weak.

Ah well to each his own. Power gamers buy games, cry the loudest, and the cycle continues.

Was this really necessary? Obviously not everyone enjoys the same games and not all concepts work for all games....

[Trebuchet]

That is the rub isn't it? Communication between the GM and players. The funny part of the story is that the GM is question is the regular DM for the long running D&D group who begged for the GM to provide a Champions game for the group...his one request was to make a lower level super world and the characters would be novices. After weeks of preparation and communication with said group, mutiny.

And that is where the question of low end gaming resurfaced.

To be truthful I do not mind the high end point games, but and it is a huge see it coming from a mile away butt, I prefer the focus of one power or at the very least a tight theme. Super Strong Guy that is stronger than any 10 other strong supers...cool. The same guy with said strength, and FTL flight, and invunerable, and instant regeneration, and laser beam eyes, and...en infinitum at nausium...is not ok.

The everything super is lame, anoying, chickenshite, and just plain weak.

Ah well to each his own. Power gamers buy games, cry the loudest, and the cycle continues.

Thanks again for the inputs.

I don't know if it was your intention, but your attitude seems rather condescending. It's not like the only two options are very-low-powered supers or "Gods in Spandex." There is a very broad happy medium. Not everyone who wants a 250 or 350 point character expects his character to have superstrength, and FTL flight, and be invulnerable, and have instant regeneration and laser beam eyes, etc. Some just may want to have their characters be a bit more powerful than a typical pulp era hero.

[BcAugust]

Hmm, I'd be a bit upset with a 125 "supers" game, but mainly because I tend to like spending a few points on "concept" skills/powers that that tight a budget doesn't generally allow. That, and I find hacking the system minigame a bit boring.

Admittedly, I'd play a normals game at that budget. And I don't have a problem with low powered games in general. I suppose it depends what he considers the universe. I mean, from what it sounds like, the players did try to work with it, and found that there was no happy medium.

[Trebuchet]

Reading this thread again, I find myself wondering if we've just been subjected to a drive-by trolling?

[CrosshairCollie]

Was this really necessary? Obviously not everyone enjoys the same games and not all concepts work for all games....

Utterly unnecessary, and rather plonkworthy.

[mirage]

If you look at the very early days of superheros, you could get away with it.

I mean, look at the early xmen. Cyclops had one power. Angel had one power.

More recently, every character's gotta be able to solo.

How else are you going to get your own book?

In the early days of Television people were happy to have a black and white set with one bad speaker.

But you aren't going to sell to many of those today.