Should FH wizards use VPPs?

[Michael Hopcroft]

Should I consder buying a VPP for a wizard character in FH to reflect the vast number of (relatively) minor spells he knows?

If the same limitations apply to all the spells in the VPP (gestures and incantations, Extra Tinme perhaps) this could theoretically create a very flexible mage, particulaly if he can change powers every minute or so. The one problem I forsee is that it would be a very expensive way to construct a mage, especially if you aloso want him to have a few specific, more powerful spells.

[Monolith]

The only problem with using VPPs is that they are AP limiting. Sometimes a very simple spell can be quite AP expensive to build in Hero terms. I am sure they would work well for small AP spells though.

If I were to ever play in a FH game I would probably use the 5/1 spell cost example provided in the book to allow mages to get vast amount of simple spells. I also considered a method where the character would just pay 1 point for each 10 APs in the spell, so a 60 AP spell costs the mage 6 points regardless of Limitations and other factors.

[keithcurtis]

I would suggest limiting the number of spells he knows through meta-game reasons: He has to research them/find them/buy them, etc.

As for limiting his versatility, make all of his spells run off an END reserve, then slap some lims on the Reserve recovery rate. This will allow for as wide a variety of spells as you want to allow him and still limit his ability to do as much as he wants as often as he wants. This is essentially the system we use and it works very well.
If you would like to read more, the whole system is in the Digital Hero archives (from the Cybergames days).

Keith "Brrr.... Cybergames" Curtis

[Mr. Negative]

For doing wizards the way that I normally envision them, the VPP is a must. Having said that, let me qualify it:

First, I envision all but the most minor of mages as being capable of "less impressive" feats of magic than usually seen on the battlefield. Second, I am a HUGE fan of the idea of spell prerequisites of the GURPS system. That is to say, if you can cast an explosive fireball, you must know how to cast a regular fireball, as well as be able to create and shape fire, ignite fires, etc. This system is WONDERFUL for "focusing" wizards around themes, rather than allowing them to exist as amorphous blobs of useful spells.

Now, requiring wizards in FH to buy tons of minor spells is a bad idea. It costs too many character points and doesn't reflect well in effectiveness. The wizard ends up with 80 point in spells and 1 or 2 dramatic and effective ones, which is normally not what a wizard player is looking for.

I actually use the VPP for all the character's spells, to reflect that their magic is all emanating from one source. However, to do this, I do put several restrictions on the lot. Shifting points in the pool requires no time, as the mage can cast one spell one turn and another spell the next. Virtually all spells must have a success roll of one sort or another ("to hit" or activation). I don't use a spell skill roll for each spell as this encourages the player to buy it up as high as possible, and because a wizard may know a new spell poorly (low activation roll) and another spell very well (high or no activation roll). Virtually all spells require concentration, gestures, and incantations to cast, as well as extra time (sometimes just a full phase), though certain spells (reflexive defense spells only) do not. Finally, I STRONGLY limit the spells in the VPP to the following:

All spells must be completely written up in advance (wizards have an established repertoire of spells and do not "make them up on the fly" in my campaigns.

All spells must have been previously approved by the GM.

All spells must either fit into previously established "colleges" of spells known by the mage, or be very minor spells (representing a new sphere of magic being explored).

Minor magics from a college or sphere must be known (written up) before any major spells are written up. This means that, to be a fire wizard, for example, you should be able to light fires, keep yourself warm, and protect yourself from fires before you can start learning to throw more powerful fire spells. This is highly subjective, so beware!

Advanced magical knowledge (many or powerful spells) should also be represented either by a high KS: Magic roll (for the generalist), or decent KS: Fire (or Earth, or Enchantment, or Necromantic, etc.) Magic rolls. This means that to be a wizard with a great deal of spells, you need to actually know a lot of information about your area of expertise.

Also, many important spells "bump up" against the Active Point limit of the VPP, even though their combat effectiveness is minimal. For example, a "Clean Wounds" spell that removed infection and foreign objects from a wound would need to be a fairly powerful transform (as it consistently removes these objects even from a character with a high body), but would be a fairly limited spell, as it may take lots of extra time, require a willing subject, and can really only be used to help someone. In cases like this, the GM could allow the Active Points of the spell to exceed the VPP limit, but I would probably still limit the REAL points to the Pool limits (and only in cases like this, where the exception is needed to "allow" an important, plausible, balanced game effect.

I would like to point out that this system of magic is not universal, nor even common in fantasy worlds. Many worlds use a system that assumes each spell is a separate block of knowledge, or kind of a magical maneuver that you have trained in. My point is only that a VPP magic pool is very viable for FH, but that the GM must take a very active role in ensuring that the specifics of the VPP mesh with the metaphysics of magic in his world.

[Killer Shrike]

I prefer VPPs for Magic myself, but 1st check w/ your GM.

There should be a consistent approach (or several different but internally consistent) to Magic within the campaign/setting, or it becomes very weird.

[Citizen Keen]

Originally posted by keithcurtis
I would suggest limiting the number of spells he knows through meta-game reasons: He has to research them/find them/buy them, etc.

As for limiting his versatility, make all of his spells run off an END reserve, then slap some lims on the Reserve recovery rate. This will allow for as wide a variety of spells as you want to allow him and still limit his ability to do as much as he wants as often as he wants. This is essentially the system we use and it works very well.
If you would like to read more, the whole system is in the Digital Hero archives (from the Cybergames days).

Keith "Brrr.... Cybergames" Curtis

I've done both these things, and it works great.

The way magic works in my campaign is that the Gods create spells. No matter how powerful a mage you are, you cannot invent new spells. You can only cast spells you have seen. Anytime you see a new spell, you're entitled to a Zero Phase Analyze Magic skill roll (vs. Concealment, if you want to hide your spell). If the spell is in your school, and you make the roll, you can cast it.

This gives me (the GM) great control, because only I can expose characters to new spells, and they can only cast spells they've been exposed to. I'm open to them bringing me a new spell and saying "Me like", the catch being is that it will probably be used against them before they get it.

I also use END reserves to great effect, but we all know how END reserves work.

-cK

[AnotherSkip]

I'm not sure i would enjoy all of the system "suggestions" listed.....

i prefer to be able to create and a VPP is a constructors dream come true.

that being said, for speed of play I usually go with two powers and -1 in limitations rather than my whole detailed balancing act.....

[OddHat]

I like the idea of a VPP with GM imposed limits on allowable spells myself, as well as a strict "no casting on the fly" rule to help prevent plot breakers. The active point limit on VPPs is a problem. Usually I'll allow adjustment powers to be used for situations where the character absolutely has to have another 40 active points in order to summon Yog-Sogoth...

[Damon_Dusk]

I used a VPP system for wizards in my fantasy games as well, and I got around the Active Point limits by including an Advantage on the Control Cost. I believe it was something like 2x AP max for +1/2, 3x for +1, 4x for +1 1/2, and so on. All spells were created by me, though I did allow player made spells (with approval by me). It allowed wizards to know powerful spells, but still were limited in how many spells they could have "memorized" at one time. It seemed to work out, but probably needs more testing.

[Chris Goodwin]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
Should I consder buying a VPP for a wizard character in FH to reflect the vast number of (relatively) minor spells he knows?

Check with the GM. Unless the GM is using a pretty generic magic system, he's probably got something in mind for how magic works in his campaign. It might be that you can't use VPPs or other frameworks.

[Agent Escafarc]

I use VPPs for magi in my game also. But I don't have pre-designed spells each mage manipulates magic in his owm unique way. You would not find "spell books" but instead it would be a book on the the theroy of magic. AP limits require multible magi working together. I should also mention that there are no magic items in my game so magi weld social and political power also.

[PhilFleischmann]

I don't remember who suggested this solution, so forgive me if it was you. It was a long time ago on the old boards. I thought it was an absolutely brilliant, and very well balanced house rule:

For a VPP, you pay
1) the Pool cost, as normal. The full amount = the maximum amount of Real Points of power that can be in the pool. (So far, this is exactly according to FREd.)
2) The Control cost = 1/2 the maximum Active Points of any one power in the pool. If the maximum AP = the total RP, you have a standard, per-FREd, VPP:

Examples:
a) Standard FREd-like VPP:
50 Pool Cost = 50 Real Points of power in the pool.
25 Control Cost = 50 maximum Active Points of any one power.
75 CP total

b) Low AP VPP:
50 Pool Cost = 50 RP total
10 Control Cost = 20 max AP of any one power.
This would be for a pool of fairly small powers only. Smaller powers, less flexibility = costs less: 60 CP as opposed to 75.

c) High AP VPP:
50 Pool Cost = 50 RP total in the pool
50 Control Cost = 100 max AP of any one power.
This allows huge powers to be put in the pool, provided they have enough limitations to fit into the Real Points limit, e.g., a 100 AP power would need at least -1 in limitations to fit into this pool, and even at -1, it would use up the entire pool. Bigger powers, more flexibility = costs more: 100 CP instead of 75.

For the record. I find VPPs to be quite useful for mages. In my campaign I usually don't allow them to be changed on the fly. Mages must spend an hour or several hours studying to change their pools around. But I do allow them great flexibility as to what spells they can have. Pretty much anything goes that doesn't spoil the plot, and as long as it satisfies any other restrictions on the character.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann
I don't remember who suggested this solution, so forgive me if it was you. It was a long time ago on the old boards. I thought it was an absolutely brilliant, and very well balanced house rule:

For a VPP, you pay
1) the Pool cost, as normal. The full amount = the maximum amount of Real Points of power that can be in the pool. (So far, this is exactly according to FREd.)

My AD&D 2e -> HERO System conversion used this method, with the corrolary that you could only have 1 spell in the pool at a time, and casting it "flushed" the VPP. Thus to have effects that stuck around you had to apply 0 end Contin Uncontrolled to the spell, which helped. As another artificial control, the Real Cost/ 10 = the spells level, and all spells, even 0 END spells, cost their "level" in END from a Magic END Pool when cast. The REC on the END Pool was defaulted to "Only after 8 hours of rest" for no limitation (but could be bought up the time chart for a +1/4 per step).

It worked out well.


My new 3e -> HERO System conversion takes a different tack however; its book legal, does away with a Magic END Pool, and requires all spells to be built with Charges. To get around the difficulty of fitting enough spells into the pool, the Real Cost total can be doubled as a +5 Adder on the Control Cost and can be taken multiple times (thus x8 RC total is a +15 Adder, applied before modifiers as normal for an Adder).

[Killer Shrike]

Heres a link to it:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/show...&threadid=3486

[RadeFox]

How do you explain/prevent mages from buying their VPP's thus:
20 RP poll
+5 adder 40pt pool
+5 adder 60 pt pool
+5 adder 80 pt pool
+5 adder 100 pt pool
+5 adder 120pt VPP!

so now for 45 cp, a mage could have an 120 RP limit VPP. Not too mention, now he could increase the base with 1 xp and net a gain of 5 pts in the Pool. Or they could just keep on buying the doubling adders. Sounds very abusive to me.

Mages with VPP's are hard to balance in almost any magic system incarnation in hero. But I agree, a VPP is the most 'normal' wayto handle the kind of fantasy magic wielders most of us are used too.

Im still looking for the perfect blend of playability ease, Balance, and wonderous effects for my own world a brewing. :P