Should FH wizards use VPPs?

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

That's one opinion. It's certainly not mine. VPP's when properly controlled by a competent gamemaster can add help support a variety of flavors of magic, especially ones where the spells can be modified fairly easily. For example, 2nd and 3rd Editions of D&D have built in the ability to greatly modify the spells to the point that a VPP becomes attractive (especially 2nd, where the modifications were done by spells rather than Feats).

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by rayoman
Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

Warriors get free equipment, the cost break of STR and CON, and the inexpensive Martial Arts Maneuvers. None of these are accessible by the typical mage conception. I don't see any unfairness even if I didn't allow them to also have access to Power Frameworks.

However, yes, if a warrior needed abilities that could not be simulated by some combination of these things, I would certainly allow appropriate Power Frameworks to deal with it.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Mr. Negative
Evidently I was wrong. Never mind what I said about the potential benefits of trying VPP in FH. Variable Power Pools are not allowed in Fantasy Hero, only in Champions. Thank you for clearing that up.

Hmm, in case you weren't being ironic: this is no longer the case. The current edition of FH advises against it for many games, but does not actually disallow it.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft
I guess I should be kicked off the board for even brining it up then. Or maybe I should just leave and never come back.

How about this. If anyone tells me in private messaging that they are sick and tired of my ideas and want me to leave, I'll leave and never come back. If I can be this offenseive, I obviously don't belong here.

I don't remember you saying anything in the least bit offensive. You asked for opinions, and many people have voiced theirs. There's nothing wrong with that - that's what game-related message boards are for. Remember that gamers tend to be an opinionated and contentious lot to begin with, especially on a subject like VPPs, which have been the subject of more discussion than nearly anything else since they came out in Champions II. (The only thing I can think of that's caused nearly as many arguments is the cheap cost of STR.) Hero players are alot like Talmudic scholars - we gain pleasure from the minutiae of the rules. Also like Talmudic scholars, we can get into some pretty heated arguments. But in the end, all that argument is over something we love, to whit, the Hero system.

My opinion on VPPs in Fantasy Hero is that they're not worth the trouble they cause, in terms of added complexity, game balance issues, and time wasted at the table. If you have players who are willing to devote lots of time to pre-prepared lists of spells for every occasion, then it can work. But few players are willing to do this, and it just causes more headaches than its worth. I also feel that the VPP/MP mage, unless heavily restricted, becomes a game-busting "bag o' tricks", being able to add extremely useful abilities (Life Support, Change Environment, Desolid, &c.) either at a whim (VPP) or with the addition of hardly any points at all (MP with an ultra slot).

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28
If you have players who are willing to devote lots of time to pre-prepared lists of spells for every occasion, then it can work.

That isn't necessarily the case. A typical example, and the one Michael is going for I believe, is the "minor magic" pool, where the exact effects in game mechanics can be glossed over a bit (eg. say a Mending spell is a Transform, the exact dice isn't needed because it will do the job). Another possibility is having modified spells: you only have a relatively few spells, but you can change certain specifics of them. This would be a short list of basic effects, click into place the Advantage you want from another list, and throw the spell.

And so on. I as GM would usually be the one designing these.

But few players are willing to do this, and it just causes more headaches than its worth. I also feel that the VPP/MP mage, unless heavily restricted, becomes a game-busting "bag o' tricks", being able to add extremely useful abilities (Life Support, Change Environment, Desolid, &c.) either at a whim (VPP) or with the addition of hardly any points at all (MP with an ultra slot).

Just depends on how flexible you want a given mage to be. A lot of the time, the bag 'o tricks approach is very appropriate to a setting, and in my experience only rarely is imbalanced with the skill/equipment based characters. But there are some specific *players* I've had I would never allow one of these, because they'll bog down the game trying to get things out of that VPP that I have repeatedly told them are inappropriate for their special effect.

Still, the inflexibility of the old Fantasy HERO is one of the things that have gotten even HERO fans to turn to other systems for their fantasy fix. Part of the reason I like Power Frameworks.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by GamePhil
Another possibility is having modified spells: you only have a relatively few spells, but you can change certain specifics of them. This would be a short list of basic effects, click into place the Advantage you want from another list, and throw the spell.

Couldn't you replicate this by simply using the Variable advantage advantage?

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Couldn't you replicate this by simply using the Variable advantage advantage?

Possibly, but it again depends on specifics. For example, say I want a Flame Burst spell, and I want it to be able to be a 6d6 EB or a 4d6 Explosion or a 3d6 NND (defense is LS vs. Heat). This does not fit the normal Variable Advantage model because the base power is changing, and is more reasonable than a 6d6 EB with a +1 Variable Advantage.

It can be done. 6d6 EB, +1 Variable Advantage, Only Up To 30 Active Points (-1). But that seems a little odd when Power Frameworks exist, and this is only the most trivial example. If the character wants to be able to focus the blast into a Killing Attack, it becomes still more iffy, though of course a second Power can be purchased (should take a Limitation: No MPA, though, since it is just the same spell with a different usage).

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by tetsujin28
Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

That's nice .

now then not every Champions, Dark Champions, or Superpowered character has a framework. Sure they are nice especially for building characters that "forget' they have certain powers. But i just as easily built a 250 point 4th ed character with as without and now it is just as easy, especially since alot of the frameworks are better understood.

Also how does someone build a "game busting" power? They are all in the book right? Anything you can build in an MP or VPP you can point build just as easily if not easier.
unless you are doing some rather poor planning on the villians/NPC's part you should be prepared for the players to surprise you, VPP, MP, EC, or no. If you can't plan that well, write stories, the characters do what you tell them to, don't shoot holes in the plot, and you generally have less arguments.

Secondly if you don't want the big powers(Desolid, Precog, etc...) dont use big frameworks.

besides give the Villians Frameworks, the worst guy we ever faced one on one was an opposing wizard who had a VPP (he multiformed into a huge scarab beatle and tried to kill me while ignoring my friend thumping his armored hide).

[tetsujin28]

Notice what the first words in my post were: "Not to be mean." Nothing in my post was a personal attack on anyone. By "It's not Champions, so just live with it," I was drawing on many years of Hero experience (I co-wrote some of the powers that found their way into Champions II), and the fact that VPPs (and other power frameworks) were never designed to work in any setting other than Champions. It would appear that some members of this board have even thinner skins than most gamers. My opinion was asked, and I gave it. Based on my experience running Hero in a fantasy context for more than 20 years, my reply is still to not allow VPPs or MPs in a fantasy context. They're just too powerful.

Re: no power being able to be "game-busting". A power can easily be over-effective if it does too many things too well for too little cost, which is what power frameworks do in FH, especially VPPs and MPs with ultra slots. What especially happens is the D&D syndrome of skills being replaced by magic and magic items.

[Mordacius]

tetsujin28:
I don't agree with you about Power Frameworks, but I can understand most of where you're coming from about them being too effective. Not been my experience at all, but you're certainly entitled to feel differently.

This is the part that I find odd, though:

By "It's not Champions, so just live with it," I was drawing on many years of Hero experience (I co-wrote some of the powers that found their way into Champions II), and the fact that VPPs (and other power frameworks) were never designed to work in any setting other than Champions.

I don't see a difference in balance issues between those two genres. Why do VPPs work for you in one, and not the other?

[Korvar]

The thing I like about VPPs is limiting the "change points" condition to "several hours sat down with a book". So the mage has to choose ahead of time what spells to take, meaning their spell choice isn't always appropriate for the situation they face. Is there a suggested way of applying that to Multipowers?

A "cosmic" VPP or even a "skill roll to change" VPP is very flexible and powerful (and costs!), but even that can be suitable for certain High Fantasy - which can be close enough to Champions anyway.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by GamePhil
Still, the inflexibility of the old Fantasy HERO is one of the things that have gotten even HERO fans to turn to other systems for their fantasy fix. Part of the reason I like Power Frameworks.

Which I think is a major factor here. Most people I've seen debate conversions of other fantasy systems have resorted to VPPs in order to convert the magic systems.

Personally, I'd define magic VPPs much like Gadget Pools in Champions- not a "pool of do anything you want", but a pool that covers a lot of miscellaneous capabilities that it is no longer cost efficient to represent with separate spells or Multipowers. That is, if you've spent so many points on Multipower slots that you might as well convert them to the Base Cost of a VPP, then that's the time to do it.

IMO, a beginning character shouldn't have a pool, and a beginning HERO player shouldn't have one until he's familiar enough with the system to know how it works. In story terms, most beginning mages know a few separate effects. By the time the character is skilled enough to channel effects at will (Rand in Wheel of Time, Willow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc.) the character in game terms will have enough experience (and Experience Points) to make the transition to VPP worthwhile AND justified in terms of story background.

If VPPs seem too powerful, remember that they normally require an extra action and a Skill Roll to change over. For most fantasy (i.e. simulating D&D-type stuff) the 'Cosmic' Advantages shouldn't be allowed. Most casters can't simply make up spells on the fly; 'arcane' casters need to consult their books to change the VPP, meaning also that they are limited to the spells that they've actually researched- i.e. only those the GM allowed him to have or that he made up with Inventor/Spell Research (ultimately, the same). Clerics would only have those powers their god allowed, meaning that they're even more under GM control.

Basically, in HERO System, with great power comes great responsibility. The GM has more freedom to design the parameters of his game system than with any other rules, but that also means weighing how things would work without relying on some designers' notion of "game balance."

Hope this helps.

JG

[Talon]

I used VPPs for starting characters -- but they were heavily limited VPPs, where you had to get a KS for each spell you could do, and then use the KS if you wanted to improvise small variations to the spell. Beginning players were sheltered from the hazards of VPPs because they had to have writeups for every spell they had a KS for, and experienced players could use the KS to tweak the writeups if they wanted to.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by James Gillen
Most people I've seen debate conversions of other fantasy systems have resorted to VPPs in order to convert the magic systems.
JG

An excellent point. Whilst I don't see the base FH magic system as "inflexible", it's true that for some conversions there's no way around the VPP. As an example, my two favourite magic systems, that found in Pendragon and the dynamic sorcery power from Big Eyes Small Mouth, are both best represented by VPPs.

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28
An excellent point. Whilst I don't see the base FH magic system as "inflexible", it's true that for some conversions there's no way around the VPP. As an example, my two favourite magic systems, that found in Pendragon and the dynamic sorcery power from Big Eyes Small Mouth, are both best represented by VPPs.

Which would be an indicator that by comparison to these other games, FH mages are less flexible. Which further means that to create a new magic system which is as flexible as these other systems, VPP's or other Power Frameworks will be necessary. So it certainly has uses for areas outside of conversion, such as the minor magic pool that Michael originally asked about.

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

I have no idea of the point of this paragraph. It appears to be anecdotal evidence from your own gaming group to support your position. I could get a group of people of like years in the game who disagree, but what on earth would be the point? If having decades of Hero experience under one's belt meant anything, many of us would be in happy agreement about everything.