Big Name Supers or equal characters?

[sindyr]

OK very brief intro first: Hi.

OK slightly less brief intro (grin): Gamer for close to three decades, played dozens of systems, collected hundreds. Loved this game back when it was just Champions (4th Ed), just now getting into 5th Ed. Computer Consultant by trade and math and crunchy system do not scare me.

Now to the questions: How do players in this game get to play characters with the same abilities as Superman, the Flash, Green Lantern, Dr. Strange, the Human Torch, Thor, etc? I mean in terms of point costs?

And I am only talking about their abilities, not their contacts or history, just building a character of similar (or exactly the same) ability seen in the movies and comics.

I know that you can create a watered down 250 point Superman. You could probably choose to create an accurate Superman on fewer points by choosing the "right" Superman, such as the one from the old black and white TV show. But what if I want to make Smallville's Supe or Christopher Reeve's? What if I want to make any of these big name superheroes according to modern usage?

That's gonna take a lot of points.

Take for example Superman, the classic case. And let's use the Smallville version, since it's detailed and current.

• He is generally invulnerable to everything except kryptonite and magic. That's not a reduction in incoming damage, but an ignoring of it.
• He has a lesser version of the Flash's superspeed, able to react superquickly and get large tasks done in the blink of an eye.
• Likewise he has superfast "faster-than-the-eye-can-see" movement in whatever medium he is in.
• X-Ray vision
• Laser eyes
• Super Breath
• Extraordinary Super Strength
• Super Hearing
• Super Leaping

How can one build such a player character on starting points?

I can only see a few different way to permit players to play these big name type character, or those of equal power:

-The ubiquitous Variable Power Pool. But using it to solve the too-few-points problem every time is beginning to feel a little like a cheat to me. IMO, the purpose of VPPs is to simulate something like Magic or Gadgeteering, where you have soo many tricks you can't really list them all. IMO, if you have a reasonable list of tricks, say less than 15 or 20, you shouldn't have to go to the VPP to be able to afford them.

-The GM can ask the player for the character concept, and once approved, allow the player to have enough points to make it. This too seems like a cheat, and worse, seems unfair because different players would get different amount of character points to start out with.

-Hand out X character points to each player, where X is enough to build a Superman or a Thor or a Flash, without sacrificing accuracy. How much should X be? And what happens if someone wants tobuild Batman and has 500 points left over? I guess the player could bank them and spend them little by little as them need contacts, gadgets, etc.

What's the best solution for this problem? Obviously, the "solution" that you just don't let you players play in the big leagues as a Superman or Flash is not acceptable for the purposes of this discussion.

Thanks.

[jtelson]

Hand out X points, trust me when I say you can spend Superman level points trying to build Batman without, if you'll pardon the expresion, batting an eye (particularly once you start looking at gear)

One of the problems you're going to run into with Superman is Invulnerability; Hero doesn't do it well. A better way to put it is that Hero has chosen not to do it well. You either need to go with Desolidification and slap a +2 advantage on everything or accept that massive defences must suffice. (105PD means never having to fear terminal velocity)

[sindyr]

Would it be fair to say that Heroes does actually have Invulnerability per se? And that maybe the GM should just "invent" that power?

I guess that bifurcates this questions into two branches:

1) Are there any guidelines for creating new power and setting the appropriate costs and parameters? Such as:

True Physical Invulnerability: One cannot be affected internally by damage, disease, discomfort, pain, etc. This does not prevent one from being knocked around, or grabbed and imprisoned, but no effect can cause physical effects to the user.

Obviously with Supes, this would have the limitation of *Except Kryptonite and *Except Magic.

2) How many character points minimally should it take to make a feature super like Superman, Green Lantern, the Flash, Thor, and Dr Strange? What should "X" be? 500 total points? 750? 1000? I have been out of the system for so long I don't know what is not enough, and what is ridiculously too much.

[jtelson]

1) I've never really needed a power I couldn't work out. Invulnerability can be done with a limited form of Desolidification it just becomes expensive because everything that effects the real world needs to purchased with a +2 advantage. Also having played GURPS Supers which has Invulnerability I've found it to be more than a little unbalancing. (Side Note: I haven't read a Superman comic in a long long while but in the animated stuff he's not invulnerable, just very tough)

2) I'd try 500 base plus disads and see what the players came back with (They will be mighty)

[Hyper-Man]

There are some very good write ups of all the characters you mentioned on the board and other poster's own websites. (look up Enforcer84 and Surbrook).

With regard to your specific source examples (movies and tv shows) HERO and Champions particular is primarily designed to help you build characters for TEAM games. The main characters from the movies and tv shows are primarily SOLO character and as such are far more powerful than most incarnations of their comic book variants (when this is not the case it is one of the primary causes of company wide reboots like Crisis on Infinite Earths and the more recent Final Crisis).

[Egyptoid]

I'm running a big fat game right now, with heavy hitters in it:

SILVER SURFER, the new QUASAR, HERCULES, STARFOX, & HIGH EVOLUTIONARY.
plus we just added Magneto's grandson.

They had 600 points to play with. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ THREAD
Its a gross level game, and I have to pull out villains
like the Collector and Power-Skrull to challenge them.

[Bloodstone]

What's the best solution for this problem? Obviously, the "solution" that you just don't let you players play in the big leagues as a Superman or Flash is not acceptable for the purposes of this discussion.

Thanks.

Well, until you feel comfortable as a GM's in that level game you DON'T let your players play character like the Flash or Superman. Lots of horror stories to be told about games like that. However, once you do get to that level, the points really don't matter and are there more for record keeping than outright balance.

Keep in mind, it's also a matter of scale. I can make a pretty damn good Superman homage on 350-600 pts, but I'd need thousands of points to meticulously remake him as he exists in the DCU right now.

[sindyr]

1) I've never really needed a power I couldn't work out. Invulnerability can be done with a limited form of Desolidification it just becomes expensive because everything that effects the real world needs to purchased with a +2 advantage. Also having played GURPS Supers which has Invulnerability I've found it to be more than a little unbalancing. (Side Note: I haven't read a Superman comic in a long long while but in the animated stuff he's not invulnerable, just very tough)

The Desolid fix, while inventive, does not feel like it fits. I just get the feeling that it would be a kludge. It would seem to be simpler and more straightforward to be able to add the power itself to the game.

How does one design and balance powers for this game? Are there any official guidelines or tutorials for building completely new powers from scratch, or are we on our own?

This is going to come up multiple times I think because several characters under consideration have what I could call "absolute" powers, ie, can't be affected physically, another character can teleport *anywhere*, regardless of distance, another has a mental/spiritual form of invulnerability.

What I am hearing is that Hero System gives you way to design characters with a quantified level of X or Y, but not an absolute level of X or Y, and as such, I need a way to build for that.

For example, there is a character that can teleport items that he can see from one place to another. This power cannot be stopped by force fields or any other defense.

So I need to figure out how to handle absolute powers within Hero System.

Ideas? Especially regarding any written rules or guidelines for building completely new powers.

2) I'd try 500 base plus disads and see what the players came back with (They will be mighty)

OK, 500 base plus how many disads allowable?

With regard to your specific source examples (movies and tv shows) HERO and Champions particular is primarily designed to help you build characters for TEAM games. The main characters from the movies and tv shows are primarily SOLO character and as such are far more powerful than most incarnations of their comic book variants (when this is not the case it is one of the primary causes of company wide reboots like Crisis on Infinite Earths and the more recent Final Crisis).

I don't think we are worried about making sure that people stay weak enough to force teaming, these players *want* to team. As such, I think we will be fine even if they are each a full on super-hero in their own right.

I'm running a big fat game right now, with heavy hitters in it:

SILVER SURFER, the new QUASAR, HERCULES, STARFOX, & HIGH EVOLUTIONARY.
plus we just added Magneto's grandson.

They had 600 points to play with. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ THREAD
Its a gross level game, and I have to pull out villains
like the Collector and Power-Skrull to challenge them.

600 points plus disads, or 600 points total?

Well, until you feel comfortable as a GM's in that level game you DON'T let your players play character like the Flash or Superman. Lots of horror stories to be told about games like that. However, once you do get to that level, the points really don't matter and are there more for record keeping than outright balance.

We have played many epic level games, so no problem there. Besides, that's one of the main allures for superheroic roleplaying for us - EPIC gaming.

But we also want to maintain player fairness - and the best way to do that is to be careful about the points and make sure everyone gets the same amount.

Keep in mind, it's also a matter of scale. I can make a pretty damn good Superman homage on 350-600 pts, but I'd need thousands of points to meticulously remake him as he exists in the DCU right now.

As I have discussed up a bit, the need to spend thousands of points to make Superman may be in large part because Hero System doesn't provide Absolute powers, forcing you to buy ridiculous levels of PD, ED, Body, etc to simulate it - or forcing you to take Desolid and triple the cost of all your abilities.

If we create a few appropriately costed Absolute abilties, it may bring creating Superman to a less ridiculous level of point expenditure.

So right now, my burning question is how do we create Absolute abilities/powers?

[sindyr]

Testing, one, two, three... just made a post on this thread and it didn't show up, and tried to repost it and it said it was a duplicate... lag?

EDIT: This one showed up, so I will try to append the original reply:

1) I've never really needed a power I couldn't work out. Invulnerability can be done with a limited form of Desolidification it just becomes expensive because everything that effects the real world needs to purchased with a +2 advantage. Also having played GURPS Supers which has Invulnerability I've found it to be more than a little unbalancing. (Side Note: I haven't read a Superman comic in a long long while but in the animated stuff he's not invulnerable, just very tough)

The Desolid fix, while inventive, does not feel like it fits. I just get the feeling that it would be a kludge. It would seem to be simpler and more straightforward to be able to add the power itself to the game.

How does one design and balance powers for this game? Are there any official guidelines or tutorials for building completely new powers from scratch, or are we on our own?

This is going to come up multiple times I think because several characters under consideration have what I could call "absolute" powers, ie, can't be affected physically, another character can teleport *anywhere*, regardless of distance, another has a mental/spiritual form of invulnerability.

What I am hearing is that Hero System gives you way to design characters with a quantified level of X or Y, but not an absolute level of X or Y, and as such, I need a way to build for that.

For example, there is a character that can teleport items that he can see from one place to another. This power cannot be stopped by force fields or any other defense.

So I need to figure out how to handle absolute powers within Hero System.

Ideas? Especially regarding any written rules or guidelines for building completely new powers.

2) I'd try 500 base plus disads and see what the players came back with (They will be mighty)

OK, 500 base plus how many disads allowable?

With regard to your specific source examples (movies and tv shows) HERO and Champions particular is primarily designed to help you build characters for TEAM games. The main characters from the movies and tv shows are primarily SOLO character and as such are far more powerful than most incarnations of their comic book variants (when this is not the case it is one of the primary causes of company wide reboots like Crisis on Infinite Earths and the more recent Final Crisis).

I don't think we are worried about making sure that people stay weak enough to force teaming, these players *want* to team. As such, I think we will be fine even if they are each a full on super-hero in their own right.

I'm running a big fat game right now, with heavy hitters in it:

SILVER SURFER, the new QUASAR, HERCULES, STARFOX, & HIGH EVOLUTIONARY.
plus we just added Magneto's grandson.

They had 600 points to play with. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ THREAD
Its a gross level game, and I have to pull out villains
like the Collector and Power-Skrull to challenge them.

600 points plus disads, or 600 points total?

Well, until you feel comfortable as a GM's in that level game you DON'T let your players play character like the Flash or Superman. Lots of horror stories to be told about games like that. However, once you do get to that level, the points really don't matter and are there more for record keeping than outright balance.

We have played many epic level games, so no problem there. Besides, that's one of the main allures for superheroic roleplaying for us - EPIC gaming.

But we also want to maintain player fairness - and the best way to do that is to be careful about the points and make sure everyone gets the same amount.

Keep in mind, it's also a matter of scale. I can make a pretty damn good Superman homage on 350-600 pts, but I'd need thousands of points to meticulously remake him as he exists in the DCU right now.

As I have discussed up a bit, the need to spend thousands of points to make Superman may be in large part because Hero System doesn't provide Absolute powers, forcing you to buy ridiculous levels of PD, ED, Body, etc to simulate it - or forcing you to take Desolid and triple the cost of all your abilities.

If we create a few appropriately costed Absolute abilties, it may bring creating Superman to a less ridiculous level of point expenditure.

So right now, my burning question is how do we create Absolute abilities/powers?

[Lord Liaden]

Welcome, sindyr! I hope you continue to enjoy your visits to our community.

You're right that making high-powered characters "accurately" in HERO is going to take a lot of points. High-powered official Champions Universe characters are built on a lot of points. You really can't create heroes or villains like that on the 350-point standard starting level for Fifth Edition characters; nor was that the intention of the game's publishers. That's why the rulebook suggests higher point totals, Defense and Damage Class totals etc. as the starting point for higher power level campaigns, up to 700 points.

Getting to your specific example of Superman, don't get hung up on the term "invulnerability". In the comics, films, television shows, Superman's invulnerability is relative to the opposition he's facing. Foes in the same "weight class" as Superman can and have hurt him plenty. In the Smallville series Clark has been repeatedly pummelled by other Kryptonians and Krypton-derived beings -- in fact he often seems pretty wussy when pitted against them. He's simply too powerful for the mundane bullets, bombs, collapsing buildings etc. of the mundane world to significantly hurt him.

If you'd like to see HERO versions of some of the big name comics characters statted out with all the bells and whistles, I recommend this sample. Note that there are lots of other sources for HERO published supers on the Internet, which we can direct you to if desired.

[Lord Liaden]

So right now, my burning question is how do we create Absolute abilities/powers?

Well, as I indicated in my previous post, "absolutes" are much less common in comics than you might think. There's almost always a way around them. Consider a few examples: Marvel's Juggernaut is supposed to be "invulnerable," but when he went up against Onslaught or the other Exemplars he went down like a slaughtered sheep. They had more total power than what Juggernaut received from Cyttorak. Or how about the Vanisher? His schtick is that he can teleport anywhere in the world, through any barrier. First time he ran up against Darkstar, who wields the extra-dimensional "darkforce," she trapped him with it in mid-teleport.

Okay, enough lecturing. To create absolutes in HERO, the Fantasy HERO genre book recommends setting practical absolutes for your campaign. For example, if you want your character to be Invulnerable, you establish the maximum damage that any attack will do in your campaign, set a Defense total that completely negates it, and let your players buy that as "Invulnerability."

[Sketchpad]

For Invulnerabilty, I typiclly bend the rules a bit and make a House Rule that allows for the creation of an Elemental Control, often looking like this:

30....Invulnerability: Elemental Control, 60-point powers
60....Armor (30 PD/30 ED)
30....Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%
30....Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%

It's not RAW Legal, but works well in my games and helps it be more affordable for the hero who wants it. In the case of Big Blue, I would also tack on Not vs. Magic (-1/2), Not vs. Kryptonite (-1/4) and also create a list or another EC that's Kryptonian Physiology (including LS, Power Def, etc.). Again, it may not be 100% legal, but it's your campaign ... do what you need to do

[Lord Liaden]

How does one design and balance powers for this game? Are there any official guidelines or tutorials for building completely new powers from scratch, or are we on our own?

If you mean completely new powers, i.e. powers that aren't derived from what's already in the rules, there are a few suggestions and guideline in the chapter in the main rulebook titled "Changing The System." It's not extensive, though, because there's very little that can't be represented through existing Powers and Modifiers.

If you mean balacing characters with each other, well, 5ER has some tables with suggested character creation parameters for Characteristics, Active Points, Damage Classes and so forth on pp. 28-30. There are also a few official and unofficial formulas for a more detailed calculation of characters' capabilities relative to each other, that I could direct you to if you like.

This is going to come up multiple times I think because several characters under consideration have what I could call "absolute" powers, ie, can't be affected physically, another character can teleport *anywhere*, regardless of distance, another has a mental/spiritual form of invulnerability.

What I am hearing is that Hero System gives you way to design characters with a quantified level of X or Y, but not an absolute level of X or Y, and as such, I need a way to build for that.

For example, there is a character that can teleport items that he can see from one place to another. This power cannot be stopped by force fields or any other defense.

So I need to figure out how to handle absolute powers within Hero System.

I'm not going to belabor this point any further, because if you want to create absolutes for your game you have every right to do so. I just want to caution you to consider the effect of such things in your game. In fiction an author has complete control over how the elements of his world interact, and so can prevent any absolute he creates from being abused. OTOH in a RPG where the storytelling process is interactive and collaborative, such things can have serious unintended repercussions

If your hero has an ability that can't be stopped or avoided, what can challenge him? What obstacles can the GM put in the hero's path for him to heroically overcome that he can't simply and easily sidestep? What kind of mysteries can you run with an uber-telepath? How do you trap a teleporter who can get through anything? What becomes of the speedster or martial artist who relies on avoiding getting hit, when he comes up against an attack that never misses?

If a villain is for all practical purposes invulnerable, how do the heroes beat him? If he's only vulnerable to one thing, every hero in a group who doesn't have that one thing will be standing around uselessly during a battle with the villain.

Please understand, I'm not saying you must never do it. In certain circumstances, for specific plot reasons, it can actually add to the enjoyment of the game. I'm just saying that you should always consider the consequences of doing it.

[Lord Liaden]

For Invulnerabilty, I typiclly bend the rules a bit and make a House Rule that allows for the creation of an Elemental Control, often looking like this:

30....Invulnerability: Elemental Control, 60-point powers
60....Armor (30 PD/30 ED)
30....Energy Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%
30....Physical Damage Reduction, Resistant, 75%

It's not RAW Legal, but works well in my games and helps it be more affordable for the hero who wants it. In the case of Big Blue, I would also tack on Not vs. Magic (-1/2), Not vs. Kryptonite (-1/4) and also create a list or another EC that's Kryptonian Physiology (including LS, Power Def, etc.). Again, it may not be 100% legal, but it's your campaign ... do what you need to do

Seeing how often the exception, "unless the GM permits it" is repeated in the rule book, and how many times Steve Long has bent his own RAW in published examples to get the effect he wanted, I rarely feel much guilt over doing it myself.

[Lord Mhoram]

I'm going to come at this from another direction.

If you are going for feel and approach rather than a direct conversion then you can do two things in tandem.

First - have the characters on higher starting points... say 500. Then have most NPC heroes, and many NPC villians on the 350-500 pt range. The big name villains (Mechanon, Eurostar, Dr Destroyer ect) are higher. Set Defenses Attacks levels and such for the heroes at the level you want to match the villains you want to be the standard campaign villains - such as Eurostar.
While this doesn't give the character "Invulnerability" if 2 or 3 heroes can mop up 6 or 7 regular villains, and have a number of those attacks not do much (and are almost immune to agents) - then the character feels invlunerable. When they go up against equals, then they take damage - and superman takes damage from Brainiac, Darksied and others.

Second - and this is a thematic/deconstructionist approach - have the PCs fill the "character roles"
Flagsuit (Cap/Superman, Silver Agent)
Greatest Hero that Ever Lived (Superman, Samaritan)
Lady Warrior (Wonder Woman, Winged Victory)
Urban Trickster (Spider-man)
Dark Avenger of the Night
ect.

If the PCs are seen as more powerful than the average super, matches with the tough guys of the game, and are seen as an arch-type, you get something that feels like a true comic book character.

I did that in my last campaign, and it worked like a charm.