Superhero MMORPG's. Can't Work.

[Law Dog]

As many of you know, there is an online 3-D super-hero RPG in the works called City of Heroes. It is going to be similar to Everquest with players creating superheroes. So far, so good.

Now before I proceed any further, let me say I do enjoy MMORPG's. I've played a lot of Everquest in the past 3 years. My main bone here is that the RPG part of MMORPG is misleading. Nobody real roleplays. Okay, there are a few, but for the most part, it plays like an old fashion D&D monster smackdown mixed with a chatroom. So, one of the avenues of expression and reasons for playing instantly evaporates.

Now lets all come to one point of agreement. Not everybody can create what we would consider a good superhero. Wink, wink, we all know the ones we create are great and would be perfect for at least a comic book mini-series, but we've all played with folks who create heroes that are plain stupid. Now imagine this multiplied a hundredfold or a thousandfold. Imagine a long list of misplaced D&D characters, gun wielding Punisher clones, bad puns and double entandres like the Undigestible Wad and an assortment of randomly named characters with names like Beblix or Norkonn who have no theme and just randomly cobbled together powers.

After discussing this with folks from my gaming group, we came upon the conclusion that the reason why this type of MMOG (I took out the RolePlaying) will not work is that Superheroic game is so different from most other games. Most other games seem to be Kill stuff - Get things. Superhero games are Stop the bad guy - Save the World - Do good - Stop evil.

That's the way I see it.

[Hermit]

While I may, or may not try to get in on COH when/if (They keep falling behind) it comes out, I go to the site from time to time. It can be entertaining, and many of the groups and team sites are actually inspired, or at least fun.

I think it might work if enough people are working to review characters, and the genre is enforced somehow. I don't know if they'd have the manpower though. Still, find a way to penalize killing and it might keep things a bit more true to form.

Also, if the fans and staff alike give plenty of examples of what fits the genre, it might help the rookies to it figure it out faster. Just why do people have shiney costumes, capes, but no swords? Why doesn't that gadgeteer use a AK-47 with DPU rounds? If they start asking that, they might find the answer.

Unlike yourself though, I've not yet tried a MMORPG, not even Everquest (Which my friends who know it better refer to as 'Evercrack'). So maybe this is just 'optimistic rookie' talk on my part here.

[wcw43921]

Originally posted by Law Dog
As many of you know, there is an online 3-D super-hero RPG in the works called City of Heroes. It is going to be similar to Everquest with players creating superheroes. So far, so good.

Now before I proceed any further, let me say I do enjoy MMORPG's. I've played a lot of Everquest in the past 3 years. My main bone here is that the RPG part of MMORPG is misleading. Nobody real roleplays. Okay, there are a few, but for the most part, it plays like an old fashion D&D monster smackdown mixed with a chatroom. So, one of the avenues of expression and reasons for playing instantly evaporates.

I would think that just because the characters are not face-to-face doesn't mean they're not interacting. When you talk to someone on the phone, you're not in the same room with them, but you're still interacting. Same with chatrooms and instant messaging--you may only see words on the screen, but you react and respond to them not unlike you were talking to the person. (There are differences, of course--lag time is one, and it's much easier to ignore someone online than if they came up to you on the street.)

And people can, and do, identify with their characters online the same way they identify with their tabletop characters. They invest time, imagination and effort in their creation and playing, whether it's stats and notes committed to pencil and paper or lines of computer code stored in a server--it's still "My Character." Which to my mind makes an online game like EQ or COH a role-playing game.

Now lets all come to one point of agreement. Not everybody can create what we would consider a good superhero. Wink, wink, we all know the ones we create are great and would be perfect for at least a comic book mini-series, but we've all played with folks who create heroes that are plain stupid. Now imagine this multiplied a hundredfold or a thousandfold. Imagine a long list of misplaced D&D characters, gun wielding Punisher clones, bad puns and double entandres like the Undigestible Wad and an assortment of randomly named characters with names like Beblix or Norkonn who have no theme and just randomly cobbled together powers.

As I said above, people identify with their characters, and invest time, imagination and effort into their creation. Some more than others, but they identify with them nonetheless. A player's "WildGuy" character may be a swipe of Wolverine--but it's HIS swipe of Wolverine, not somebody else's swipe or even Wolverine himself. Same with the player whose character is "Like, he's got Batman's attitude and Reed Richards' brains, and he's got weapons that shoot different energy beams like Space Ghost's power bands, but they're way cooler, and, and. . ." In his mind, his character is the greatest thing since loose-meat burger on toast with gravy and mashed potatoes--and who are we to argue?

But I think most of the characters in COH will be "good" if for no other reason than most, if not all of the players will come to it on their own, rather than reluctantly play along because that's what the rest of the gaming group wants to play. We've all encountered the type before--someone who's ambivalent, if not downright antipathetic, towards the superhero genre and has little interest in creating a "good" character. I seriously doubt these people will be found playing COH.

After discussing this with folks from my gaming group, we came upon the conclusion that the reason why this type of MMOG (I took out the RolePlaying) will not work is that Superheroic game is so different from most other games. Most other games seem to be Kill stuff - Get things. Superhero games are Stop the bad guy - Save the World - Do good - Stop evil.

I'd like to think that being unlike most games would work in a superhero MMORPG's favor. For one, not being able to "Kill stuff - Get things" would keep out all the grief players--if there's no profit in killing and/or taking things from your fellow players, what's the point? That (hopefully) leaves all the "good" players who know the genre and want to play the genre and have fun and help each other out while they "Stop the bad guy - Save the World - Do good - Stop evil."

That's the way I see it.

And now you know the way I see it.

[GradonSilverton]

The problem that I have seen is the influx of Doom like games and the impact on computer gamers. The vast majority of people who play games like this and Everquest are not Gamers as we know them, they are Half-Life players looking for something new. The Role Play aspect is there if you want it but the majority has had games developers handle the role playing for them in side bars that they are just use to getting into the game and killing stuff. There will have to be both Good and Bad players for a game like this, and you know as well as I that there will probably be a influx of Villians vs. a Miniscule amout of Hero's. Most gaming companies do not have the resources they need to pull off a game like this. They need an entire staff (much bigger than the staff for this board as an example) to run a games like this an keep it sucessful. I'm holding out for Galaxies (maybe this Summer last I heard) b/c Lucas Arts does have the staff...and the money...to feasably pull it off.

[rjd59]

Could someone point me in the direction of the website please? I haven't heard of this before this thread and would like to check it out.
Thanks in advance!

[Hermit]

Originally posted by rjd59
Could someone point me in the direction of the website please? I haven't heard of this before this thread and would like to check it out.
Thanks in advance!

http://www.cityofheroes.com/

[Chaosliege]

I personaly cant wait until COH comes out. I'm getting more and more depressed by the constant delays, but I still want to check it out. I too have played 'Evercrack', (yes, that is a proper name for it) and I enjoyed it. I just hope COH can do for supers what 'Evercrack' did for fantasy.

[Big Willy]

Originally posted by Law Dog
Imagine a long list of misplaced D&D characters, gun wielding Punisher clones, bad puns and double entandres like the Undigestible Wad and an assortment of randomly named characters with names like Beblix or Norkonn who have no theme and just randomly cobbled together powers.

Hmm. Violent misfits with strange powers, weak rationales and forgettable names who're only interested in treasure?

They sound like supervillains to me...

[MarkusDark]

You will always have your power gamers, your smack downers, those who just want to hunt and kill and become the biggest and baddest out there. You'll get those that don't RP at all but rather just complete the quests, get the points and move on.

But you will also get the low percentage of those who DO roleplay, who stick to their character's ideals and goals and interact as if they are the superheroes.

I have been involved in developing and running MMORPG's for over the last half decade and as far as putting out a system, that isn't the big issue. Hell, someone with just a little bit of programming skill, a server and an internet connection can put something out (and has). The question is - can those producing it deliver the world they are shooting for.

Example - many have the titles of "Player driven societies" but that is misleading. A society is a group of people so, ya, any group of players create a society. However, only one game I have encountered (and yes, directed) has that ability and that is Dark Ages (not of Camelot). This is a place where people run for office, others vote and it is the players, not the admins, who make all of the common daily law enforcements of their community.

The main hurdle I see with CoH is that most hero games are based upon a ratio of something along the lines of one hero for every 10,000 (or more) normal people. With EVERYONE being a hero, there will be a line for people to stop the bankrobbers, to attack Proffessor Destro's lab and so on. Most hero universes don't have the "dungeons crawling with critters" that you just go into and hunt around for. I suppose you could find the Viper base and just sit there and plink off agents but that isn't the feel of the genre.

I will be curious to see how they manage everything from character creation and advancement to the disneyland lines to go on the supervillian quests and, most importantly, those players who get bored and do their best to play villians by sabotaging other's gameplay.

[GradonSilverton]

Originally posted by MarkusDark
The main hurdle I see with CoH is that most hero games are based upon a ratio of something along the lines of one hero for every 10,000 (or more) normal people. With EVERYONE being a hero, there will be a line for people to stop the bankrobbers, to attack Proffessor Destro's lab and so on. Most hero universes don't have the "dungeons crawling with critters" that you just go into and hunt around for. I suppose you could find the Viper base and just sit there and plink off agents but that isn't the feel of the genre.

I will be curious to see how they manage everything from character creation and advancement to the disneyland lines to go on the supervillian quests and, most importantly, those players who get bored and do their best to play villians by sabotaging other's gameplay.

Thats a damn fine obsevation..... one that hadn't even remotely crossed my mind..... I'm going to have to chew on that for a while...

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by GradonSilverton
Thats a damn fine obsevation..... one that hadn't even remotely crossed my mind..... I'm going to have to chew on that for a while...

Yeah, that's the main reason I haven't paid much attention to CoH despite being a MMORPG junkie. Still waiting for real information on how they're handling villain spawns...

[Ghost Archer]

Has anyone tried Neverwinter Nights? I understand that anyone can create their own little corner of the Universe and put in it what they will. Perhaps this is what we need, a place were we long term players can offer our world for others to adventure in. It would solve the problem of turning it into another hack and slash if I could dropped in on Hermit's world and find a bank robbery in progress or an investigation that needed to be worked.
I believe that each NWN GM/DM world allows 64 players max. I think it would still be a challenge for the GM of each piece, to entertain 64 but it would be far better than thousands upon thousands going through the same things ad nauseum.

[TheEmerged]

Can you create a "world" in NWN? Technically. It requires a boatload more work than the average person has patience for, and the scripting language behind it is allegedly (because I gave up on the editor quickly, I confess) designed by Kafka fans.

[MarkusDark]

I heard it was a hit and miss sort of item. As previously mentioned, it is rather difficult for your average, non-programmer gamer to be able to plink away with the scripting language and other things to create much. I can't remember the review my friend gave me on it - someone who's opinion is rather solid - but, in the end, his basic statement was that it was yet another instance that the company had a good idea but terrible followthrough.

I wonder why it is that most MMORPG's out there always seem to miss some of the most obvious hurdles.

[GradonSilverton]

World creation in NWN can be extremely difficult. If one has scripting expertise then all that is required is a large amout of time....

Th eproblem with NWN is high numbers of Hacked characters run around killing everything they can. I have yet to see one run (except for groups on a network that are using it as a campaign tool) were there is any form of teamwork...

MASS mayhem.