Some suggestions from GT

[Gerbera Tetra]

Before I go on I have to lay down my Hero geek cred. I can use the system, I can run this system like a well oiled machine, I can make it my bitch. I love this game. It is in my top five and has been my personal favorite game since I first played it. The main reason I don't get to play it as much these days is because it causes other people headaches.

Seriously.

People who I know damn well are above average intelligence can really find it frustrating. I attribute this in large part to some core mechanics in the game and a sheer overwhelming number of choices. The first I'm going to help with here and the second is really a feature that is not a bug but a price for unrivaled flexibility. So here are my suggestions-

One- Change the to hit mechanic. This is laughably simple [and frankly very D&D] but trust me- Each character's DCV is as normally calculated plus 10. Now all to hit rolls are the same 3D6 but now you add the OCV. If you beat the DCV total [DCV + 10] you hit. The odds are exactly the same and die rolling for combat becomes consistent, you always want to roll high to hit and damage. I know this puts skills at odds with combat now [ i.e. skills roll low, combat roll high ] but damage/effect has always been at odds. But I don't see this as a problem.

I suggest this in particular because this has always been the one place that combat slows down for new players and even many experienced players have to stop and think about what DCV they just hit. Explaining this over and over again to people who can do their own taxes makes me sure that there's no really good reason to not change it. Since the bell curve effect and die rolling aren't something that need changing.. why not just change a bit how the numbers are used?

Two Shorter turns, more to do. Essentially: lower Speeds, more you can do in an action. Players new to hero always want to be able to Move their full move Attack or do something else interesting. It might be other games, it might be movies. I've seen the same thing from veteran gamers who are new to Hero and totally newbie gamers. The way things are now is just counter intuitive to them. I think they'd be fine getting half as many actions if they could do twice as much in them. So, speed costs twice as much but you can do a full move and something else, Attack, Move again or anything else equivalent to an attack action. This should also go along whith a smaller speed chart. Say only Six Phases. Those playing super speedsters should get powers that let them simulated doing bursts of activity during their action; that's pretty much how it always works in the movies/comics anyway. This would make turns go faster and combat smoother. [let the turn stay 12 seconds though, no sense shooting up the time chart.]

Three- Mooks. While I know D&D has jumped on the mook bandwagon rather late with minions; I think Feng-Shui had it right. With a mook rule with Viper agents wouldn't take all f*cking day if they only took one hit to k.o.. So.. something like and NPC only Disad -

Glass Jaw [Physical Limitation; Frequent, Greatly]- As soon as this character takes any Body Damage at all they are considered knocked out* and at -20 Stun.

Paper Tiger [Physical Limitation; Frequent, Fully]- As soon as this character takes Stun Damage equal to the character's Con in one turn stat they are considered knocked out* and at -20 Stun.

*In some genres the NPC could also be considered dead in the attack that triggered the Disad was a Killing Attack.

Speaking of Killing Attacks... The whole mechanic for Killing attacks and the 'stun lottery' is really damn annoying. One damage mechanic, one! (to rule them all and one to bind them). This is another mechanic that has casual players of Hero scratching their heads a lot. While I don't care for how Fuzion turned out overall.. this ideas time may have come again. I know a lot of grognards are grousing but frankly having played enough other games that skip this kind of thing I don't feel I'm missing anything when it's not there. One could substitute some other kinds of damage mechanics to make up for it but why? More realism? Feh.. it's not a simulator and we know that. I didn't put this as a numbered suggestion because I'm not sure how best to deal with it but I think it has to go. I'd be more than happy to just be done with Body and call Stun Hit Points. "But it'd be to D&D!" Well so what? Hero is so far and away from D&D in every other way who cares? It's not like D&D hasn't caught a bit of the point buy bug [in the stats any way] So give me a really good reason why we should make combat slower and more complicated? Go on.. lie to me that it's a better trade off for an action adventure game.

[Klaus Mogensen]

I agree with changing attacks to a roll-high mechanic, but I think the same should be extended to skill rolls: Roll 3d6 + (Char/5) + levels vs. a Difficulty Level (DL). The standard DL would be 12 if we want to keep the same basic chance.

There's been a lot of discussion about the Speed Chart. The main problem I see with your idea is that it makes SPD more coarsely grained, which in particular is a problem at the low end. If characters get half as many action phases as, a basic normal would get 1 action per turn and a maxed normal would get 2 actions per turn, with no middle ground (like the current SPD 3). I don't mind solutions that a more coarsely grained at the high end, but even the current system is rather coarse-grained at the low end.

About mooks, I think being easier to knock out is a very little part of the solution. The main problem with mooks in Hero is that character write-ups are pretty complex, not that the mooks are hard to defeat (you can just give them low Stun and defenses if that's what you want).
I would rather (as I have suggested before) reduce the complexity of the write-ups for mooks. For one thing, reduce the number of characteristics to Brawn (Str, Con, Body), Dex, Wits (Int, Ego, Pre), DEF (PD, ED), SPD, Stun. No End (they are assumed to have enough to last an encounter) and no Rec (when they are down, they are down).

- Klaus

[steamteck]

Lordy, Klaus it would be really nice to find something we agree on just once! Well, bound to happen eventually.

I'm bias here and I know it but I love the roll low low mechanic. If I end up with 6th edition, it will be houseruled back in so fast its not funny. If this is changed its another minus which will have to be adjusted with a pretty strong plus. I think just explaining differently and/or making combat rolls just an extension of skill rolls would be better.


Your idea for the speed chart certainly has merit. I wish there was some way to present it a little less complexly and still get the basic same effect though even 10 phase turns might help out..

I also don't like the ideas of two tiers of character building. If you're not obsessive mooks can just be stated up really quickly. The physical limitations listed are a nice add to the GMs arsenal depending on what he's trying to achieve.

[Hugh Neilson]

One- Change the to hit mechanic. This is laughably simple [and frankly very D&D] but trust me- Each character's DCV is as normally calculated plus 10. Now all to hit rolls are the same 3D6 but now you add the OCV. If you beat the DCV total [DCV + 10] you hit. The odds are exactly the same and die rolling for combat becomes consistent, you always want to roll high to hit and damage. I know this puts skills at odds with combat now [ i.e. skills roll low, combat roll high ] but damage/effect has always been at odds. But I don't see this as a problem.

I suggest this in particular because this has always been the one place that combat slows down for new players and even many experienced players have to stop and think about what DCV they just hit. Explaining this over and over again to people who can do their own taxes makes me sure that there's no really good reason to not change it. Since the bell curve effect and die rolling aren't something that need changing.. why not just change a bit how the numbers are used?

There are numerous ways to compute "to hit" using the established mechanics. Given how they can be boiled down to a single sentence, in most cases, I would like to see Hero 6e retain the current "roll low" structure, but
describe the formula using many of the permutations presented in these threads, including "ocv + 11 - number rolled = DCV I can hit and at least one that makes rolling high superior, though I prefer "low roll to hit is good". If nothing else, it frustrates un-random dice.

Two Shorter turns, more to do. Essentially: lower Speeds, more you can do in an action. Players new to hero always want to be able to Move their full move Attack or do something else interesting. It might be other games, it might be movies. I've seen the same thing from veteran gamers who are new to Hero and totally newbie gamers. The way things are now is just counter intuitive to them. I think they'd be fine getting half as many actions if they could do twice as much in them. So, speed costs twice as much but you can do a full move and something else, Attack, Move again or anything else equivalent to an attack action. This should also go along whith a smaller speed chart. Say only Six Phases. Those playing super speedsters should get powers that let them simulated doing bursts of activity during their action; that's pretty much how it always works in the movies/comics anyway. This would make turns go faster and combat smoother. [let the turn stay 12 seconds though, no sense shooting up the time chart.]

Actually, I see no reason for any major change to solve the "I can't move a full move" whine. Steve proposes to change the current 6" Running to 6 meters running. Let's take that one step further. +1 meter running costs 2 CP. You can move your full move, in meters, as a half phase action. Voila - you move at exactly the same velocity for the same cost, but suddenly a "full move" requires a half phase and using movement for two half phases in a row is a "double move".

Three- Mooks. While I know D&D has jumped on the mook bandwagon rather late with minions; I think Feng-Shui had it right. With a mook rule with Viper agents wouldn't take all f*cking day if they only took one hit to k.o.. So.. something like and NPC only Disad -

Glass Jaw [Physical Limitation; Frequent, Greatly]- As soon as this character takes any Body Damage at all they are considered knocked out* and at -20 Stun.

Paper Tiger [Physical Limitation; Frequent, Fully]- As soon as this character takes Stun Damage equal to the character's Con in one turn stat they are considered knocked out* and at -20 Stun.

*In some genres the NPC could also be considered dead in the attack that triggered the Disad was a Killing Attack.

My sense? Keep it the way it is and list some options in "speeding up combat", like in the past. What if I want VIPER agent vs VIPER agent? What if I like the idea that, sometimes, the agent takes a hit and decides to flee the field? There's no need to change the mechanics for mooks.

Speaking of Killing Attacks... The whole mechanic for Killing attacks and the 'stun lottery' is really damn annoying. One damage mechanic, one! (to rule them all and one to bind them). This is another mechanic that has casual players of Hero scratching their heads a lot. While I don't care for how Fuzion turned out overall.. this ideas time may have come again. I know a lot of grognards are grousing but frankly having played enough other games that skip this kind of thing I don't feel I'm missing anything when it's not there. One could substitute some other kinds of damage mechanics to make up for it but why? More realism? Feh.. it's not a simulator and we know that. I didn't put this as a numbered suggestion because I'm not sure how best to deal with it but I think it has to go. I'd be more than happy to just be done with Body and call Stun Hit Points. "But it'd be to D&D!" Well so what? Hero is so far and away from D&D in every other way who cares? It's not like D&D hasn't caught a bit of the point buy bug [in the stats any way] So give me a really good reason why we should make combat slower and more complicated? Go on.. lie to me that it's a better trade off for an action adventure game.

I have always considered the differentiation between Stun and BOD a huge strength of Hero. Frankly, D&D fails miserably to simulate the source material. How often is Conan KO'd and left for dead? How many times can the same thing happen to a D&D character? I prefer having the possibility of a character knocked out, rather than being either hale and hearty or bleeding out.

[Gerbera Tetra]

I agree with changing attacks to a roll-high mechanic, but I think the same should be extended to skill rolls: Roll 3d6 + (Char/5) + levels vs. a Difficulty Level (DL). The standard DL would be 12 if we want to keep the same basic chance.

That seems like it would be adding complexity, but for consistency I don't see it as a bad idea at all.

There's been a lot of discussion about the Speed Chart. The main problem I see with your idea is that it makes SPD more coarsely grained, which in particular is a problem at the low end. If characters get half as many action phases as, a basic normal would get 1 action per turn and a maxed normal would get 2 actions per turn, with no middle ground (like the current SPD 3). I don't mind solutions that a more coarsely grained at the high end, but even the current system is rather coarse-grained at the low end.

Well some adjustments to the normal characteristic maxima would fix that. I'd see no issue with saying, 3 spd would be normal maxima and 6 superheroic. Besides I can actually see no issue with an untrained normal being a 1 speed.

It's important to note that I'd like character's doing a bit more per phase, and having less phases. The net 'special effect' is that they do as much in a turn; so to speak. More moving and hte like so you're not nessisarily loosing anything, you just getting more done per oportunity.

About mooks, I think being easier to knock out is a very little part of the solution. The main problem with mooks in Hero is that character write-ups are pretty complex, not that the mooks are hard to defeat (you can just give them low Stun and defenses if that's what you want).
I would rather (as I have suggested before) reduce the complexity of the write-ups for mooks. For one thing, reduce the number of characteristics to Brawn (Str, Con, Body), Dex, Wits (Int, Ego, Pre), DEF (PD, ED), SPD, Stun. No End (they are assumed to have enough to last an encounter) and no Rec (when they are down, they are down).

- Klaus

Well I tell you as a veteran Champions GM, I never write up a whole npc unless I know I'm going to need the whole thing. Combat NPC's just get the stuff they'll need in combat, the rest I assume or make up as I go.

I really don't get why anyone writes up the NPC sheets the players will never see or care about. Really the only reason to put the disads I mentioned in is to give GM's an idea they might not think of... and for the OCD GM's who must have an official rule for everything.

[Gerbera Tetra]

Actually, I see no reason for any major change to solve the "I can't move a full move" whine.

Whine? I don't see it as a whine. I see it as a reasonable expectation from veteran gamers and new gamers alike. I've seen that happen often enough that I think it needs to change.

Steve proposes to change the current 6" Running to 6 meters running. Let's take that one step further. +1 meter running costs 2 CP. You can move your full move, in meters, as a half phase action. Voila - you move at exactly the same velocity for the same cost, but suddenly a "full move" requires a half phase and using movement for two half phases in a row is a "double move".

Six of one half dozen of another. The point is, as currently presented, it confuses people and counters their expectations. So this is a good solution.

My sense? Keep it the way it is and list some options in "speeding up combat", like in the past. What if I want VIPER agent vs VIPER agent? What if I like the idea that, sometimes, the agent takes a hit and decides to flee the field? There's no need to change the mechanics for mooks.

Well my feeling is if you want the 'mooks' to be mooks use the disads. With the disad in the rules you have the option.. if you don't give your Viper agents that disad.. well no worries it just liek the old days.

I have always considered the differentiation between Stun and BOD a huge strength of Hero. Frankly, D&D fails miserably to simulate the source material. How often is Conan KO'd and left for dead? How many times can the same thing happen to a D&D character? I prefer having the possibility of a character knocked out, rather than being either hale and hearty or bleeding out.

I consider Body/Stun an extra complication. Ironically you do have good point. Hit Points don't simulate some heroic situations as well.. but it works really well for Superheroes.

But more seriously it's quite possilbe in D&D with hit points for someone to be knocked out and not killed [easier that you'd think really]. It just normally only applies to PCs and characters the GM thinks are important.

[Greywind]

I don't consider Body/Stun to be complication.

But then, I preferred DragonQuest to D&D of any edition...

Hero isn't every other game system. It never has been. Each game system has its own little quirks. The 1/2 move / action vs full move is just one of the quirks that makes Hero what it is.

Mooks/Thugs: Combat with them is, and always has been, at the discretion of the GM. If the game is lagging and interest is wavering, because combat has gone on too long, the GM needs to take a look at what he is doing wrong. The rules will not, ever, replace common sense, dramatic sense or force the GM to adjust.

If you make it so that a grunt gets hit by an attack and is taken out because you have 99 more grunts in the back field waiting to take their shot, then do it. You don't need a disad to reflect it.

[nexus]

For me, Stun/Body is a feature not a bug. I haven't seen many other systems that model the cinematic (and pretty realistic actually) conditions of being knocked out without being fatally wounded or dying but conscious.

re: The Speed chart

I found that that easiest thing to understand about Hero System honestly. It was pretty quick and intuitive for me. There are 12 Segments in a Turn. Your Speed score determines which ones you receive an action on. Either write those down or glance at a chart. Speed and the Speed Chart have never been a stumbling block, IME. Maybe if it was renamed something like Actions or Actions Per Turn?

[IndianaJoe3]

I'm bias here and I know it but I love the roll low low mechanic. If I end up with 6th edition, it will be houseruled back in so fast its not funny. If this is changed its another minus which will have to be adjusted with a pretty strong plus.

Roll high, roll low - the math doesn't change. I have a slight preference for roll-high, but converting between the two is trivial and can be placed in a sidebar.

I also don't like the ideas of two tiers of character building. If you're not obsessive mooks can just be stated up really quickly.

Hero already has 4 tiers of character building: Standard, Automatons, Vehicles, and Bases. It would benefit from a section on fast NPC generation, even if it is a list of package deals (Strong NPC, Tough NPC, Charming NPC, etc).

[Hugh Neilson]

Whine? I don't see it as a whine. I see it as a reasonable expectation from veteran gamers and new gamers alike. I've seen that happen often enough that I think it needs to change.

I see it as a whine that is easily fixed by changing the terminology. It ranks on my priorities about as high as changing Presence to Charisma and Ego to Wisdom so it will fit better with d20. If you want to play a new game, you learn that game's terminology. A "FULL MOVE" is the speed you make if you devote your FULL action to MOVE your character works fine with me.

Players moving from systems other than d20 will be more confused if we make Hero use more d20 speak. Hero has its own jargon, and there's no reason to change that.

Well my feeling is if you want the 'mooks' to be mooks use the disads. With the disad in the rules you have the option.. if you don't give your Viper agents that disad.. well no worries it just liek the old days.

Mine is that, if you want mooks, you build mooks. Characters at all levels can interact. If a mook attacking another mook has a 50% chance of hitting, and any hit kills a mook, mook to mook combat becomes a 50% per action kill. I don't find that logical or appealing.

I consider Body/Stun an extra complication. Ironically you do have good point. Hit Points don't simulate some heroic situations as well.. but it works really well for Superheroes.

Most Superheroes don't need an extended stay in convalescence (or a series of healing spells) before their next battle.

But more seriously it's quite possilbe in D&D with hit points for someone to be knocked out and not killed [easier that you'd think really]. It just normally only applies to PCs and characters the GM thinks are important.

Not as easy as you may think. Nonlethal damage is extremely uncommon (we just had a side discussion last night of starting our day off smacking each other for 10 nonlethal damage each so we'll be more likely to be knocked out instead of killed should when we run out of hit points), and once you're below 0 and bleeding out, death is pretty likely with no assistance.

The odds of rolling a d10 ten times without a 1 is 34.86%. 9 times is 38.74%, and it scales upwards to 90% if you get only one roll. Of course, if you do recover, you're now waiting for Clark the Cleric to come and replensish your hit points. If you actually have to recover on your own, the typical warrior needs a week of rest (isn't it odd that the much frailer wizard requires much less time to fully recover, without magical intervention, from being so near death?).

That's 3e/3.5e. 4e probably lets you plug another silver piece in to get three more lives, but that's another story.

I like the concept that a character can be reduced to unconsiousness with no lasting injury, or could be mortally wounded and bleeding out but still consious and heroically fighting to his last breath.

[Amazing...I thought this thread would have been shut down with instructions to put it in the threads to which it relates by now! Forum Patrol must have the weekend off ]

[Klaus Mogensen]

D&D4 has changed hit points quite a lot, and to the better IMO. It isn't as good as Hero's Stun/Body dual hits, but it's an improvement:

• Characters start with more points, typically about 20 for Wizards and up to 35 for Fighters.
• Characters have a number of 'healing surges' they can spend to heal themselves between encounters. Each healing surge gives 1/4 their max hit points (rounded down). Characters can once per encounter spend an action to heal in action, and some classes (like Cleric) have feats that allow characters to spend additional healing surges in combat.
• When characters lose half their hits, they are 'bloodied'. This has no direct effect, but some abilities only work if you/your opponent is bloodied.
• You drop unconscious if you get to 0 hits or below, and you have to make death saves (typically 10+ on d20) to stay alive. If you fail three before stabilizing (through aid or by rolling a 20), you die.
• If your hits fall below negative half max, you also die.
• If you take an extended rest (min. 6 hours rest/sleep), you regain all hits and healing surges.

The changes mean that characters are much less likely to die, particularly starting characters. Also, you don't have to spend nearly as much time resting to heal, and Clerics don't have to stock up mainly on healing spells.

However, there is no long-term damage that isn't healed in 6 hours' sleep, and (apart from the 'bloodied' effect) there are no penalties from being wounded (well, neither are there in Hero unless you use the optional damage rules).

The new D&D isn't for everyone, as it is aimed at a very specific style of play. However, it is worth looking at in relation to the Hero 6e design discussion because (a) the rules are very streamlined and well thought through, and (b) the designers haven't been afraid to change even central aspects of the game if they thought this would make a better game (for that particular style of play). I think both of these are worthy goals for Hero 6e.

- Klaus

[Hugh Neilson]

If Hero 6e goes the tabletop videogame approach taken by 4e, they`ll have one more thing in common - my group won`t be playing it.

[AnotherSkip]

D&D4 has changed hit points quite a lot, and to the better IMO. It isn't as good as Hero's Stun/Body dual hits, but it's an improvement:[LIST][*]Characters start with more points, typically about 20 for Wizards and up to 35 for Fighters.

Oooh look they stole that from Kenzer co.....

[AnotherSkip]

I The odds of rolling a d10 ten times without a 1 is 34.86%. 9 times is 38.74%, and it scales upwards to 90% if you get only one roll. Of course, if you do recover, you're now waiting for Clark the Cleric to come and replensish your hit points. If you actually have to recover on your own, the typical warrior needs a week of rest (isn't it odd that the much frailer wizard requires much less time to fully recover, without magical intervention, from being so near death?).

Back in the old days the fighter would spend a week healing and the Cleric/Wizard would spend the week rememorizing his spell list (high level Vancian spellcasters had to take a time out for many things).

[steamteck]

Hero already has 4 tiers of character building: Standard, Automatons, Vehicles, and Bases. It would benefit from a section on fast NPC generation, even if it is a list of package deals (Strong NPC, Tough NPC, Charming NPC, etc).

Um. Not even vaguely the same. apples to oranges. a set of package deals would be OK though.