To gun fu or not gun fu?

[GoldenAge]

Okay... Up until this point I've been against allowing ranged martial arts into Epic City (my longstanding superhero campaign). Right or wrong I've been a proponent of "build the power" you want instead of utilizing martial arts at range.

Well, I've changed my mind and have decided to (tentatively) allow a PC to try out gun fu in Epic City.

So, can those of you who have adopted gun fu into your campaigns (as GMs or players) help me with this decision by a little pro and con conversation?

Also, I was hoping to review some characters that were made with ranged martial arts (Gun Fu/Gun Kata). Can anyone link me to some preexisting write-ups of practitioners of gun fu?

Thanks all!

[AlHazred]

I've been in campaigns where the GM adamantly didn't allow ranged martial arts. And I've been in campaigns where the GM didn't allow any martial arts at all. Really, MA is a tool to reflect a certain kind of fighting, one with a few more options. In other RPGs (one that recently entered its 4th edition springs to mind) there seems to be a, I don't know, fear of allowing characters to be as effective at range as they are hand-to-hand. Which is groundless.

Let me ask you this, what if I created a character who could send his hands through 4th dimensional space to pummel the enemy at range. Would that be acceptable? It's basically a form of Stretching. Now what if I have Martial Arts? Can I use them at range? I can see arguments both for ("Why not? Your hands are deadly weapons!") and against ("Martial Arts are precision maneuvers, and you can't see well enough to land the right blows.") but what it comes down to is simply, do you want them to be that powerful or not?

For the most part, all the MA do is add a few DCs (up to 4) and increase the maximum OCV and DCV your PCs are capable of; if you use hard caps for all three qualities, then whether the PCs got them by taking MA or buying the powers/skills directly is moot. The MA don't usually end up being that much of a cheaper alternative unless you allow limitations on them, which I counsel against.

The only problematic options are Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip, but those are nonlethal attacks that can either take a ranged target out of sight/effectiveness, or be used at dramatic moments to thwart a villain whose about to get away with his plots by wielding the One Ring/sacrificing the virgin. In either case, it's easy enough to guard against these with a little forethought -- keep them in mind when designing your big final battles, and you'll be okay.

[TheQuestionMan]

John Preston, Gammiton Cleric (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...hnpreston.html

The Preacher (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta.../preacher.html

Chow-Yun Fat (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...howyunfat.html

Roland Deschain -The Dark Tower (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...unslinger.html

The Man With No Name - (a.k.a. Blondie, Joe, Manco) (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...movie/man.html


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gun-Kata Resources:


The Killer (Wanted! - Top Cow Productions)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanted_(comics)


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Dark Champions: Heroes of Vengence
https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=188242

Dark Champions: The Animated Series
https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=194250

Hudson City: The Urban Abyss
https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=191569

Predators
https://www.herogames.com/viewItem.htm?itemID=195686



<<<More Coming Soon>>>


QM

[bubba smith]

what about a hero who uses a taser/ stun gun that shoots electrified corded darts would that be at range

[Peregrine]

I've been in campaigns where the GM adamantly didn't allow ranged martial arts. And I've been in campaigns where the GM didn't allow any martial arts at all. Really, MA is a tool to reflect a certain kind of fighting, one with a few more options. In other RPGs (one that recently entered its 4th edition springs to mind) there seems to be a, I don't know, fear of allowing characters to be as effective at range as they are hand-to-hand. Which is groundless.

Let me ask you this, what if I created a character who could send his hands through 4th dimensional space to pummel the enemy at range. Would that be acceptable? It's basically a form of Stretching. Now what if I have Martial Arts? Can I use them at range? I can see arguments both for ("Why not? Your hands are deadly weapons!") and against ("Martial Arts are precision maneuvers, and you can't see well enough to land the right blows.") but what it comes down to is simply, do you want them to be that powerful or not?

For the most part, all the MA do is add a few DCs (up to 4) and increase the maximum OCV and DCV your PCs are capable of; if you use hard caps for all three qualities, then whether the PCs got them by taking MA or buying the powers/skills directly is moot. The MA don't usually end up being that much of a cheaper alternative unless you allow limitations on them, which I counsel against.

The only problematic options are Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip, but those are nonlethal attacks that can either take a ranged target out of sight/effectiveness, or be used at dramatic moments to thwart a villain whose about to get away with his plots by wielding the One Ring/sacrificing the virgin. In either case, it's easy enough to guard against these with a little forethought -- keep them in mind when designing your big final battles, and you'll be okay.

[tangent]
The problem with counting Martial Maneuver damage against a hard DC cap is that you can't Haymaker a Martial Maneuver. So unless you count all Maneuver damage, including Haymaker, against the DC cap, it isn't balanced to count Martial Maneuver damage against a DC cap.

Here's the head-to-head comparison of Haymaker with comparable Martial Maneuvers:

Maneuver           Phase  Cost  OCV  DCV  Rng   Effects
Haymaker            1/2*     0      +0    -5   --     +4 DC to Any Attack
Offensive Strike    1/2       5      -2    +1   --     Strike + 4 DC
Sacrifice Strike     1/2       5      +1    -2   --     Strike + 4 DC
Offensive Shot      1/2      4       -1    -1   +0    Strike + 4 DC

*This Maneuver takes one extra Segment to perform

Granted, Haymaker is harder to land due to the extra Segment, and the Haymakering character is a -5 DCV - both are significant disadvantages. But Haymaker costs nothing; any character can Haymaker any attack except for other Maneuvers, including Martial Maneuvers. The three Martial Maneuvers listed, each of which provides the same additional DCs, cost 4-5 points each. While each is easier to land, lacking the one Segment delay of the Haymaker, as well as having less DCV penalty, etc., the character has paid for the benefits. Net effect: if you count Martial Maneuver damage against a hard DC cap, and not Standard and Optional Maneuver damage, then characters who use Martial Maneuvers cannot "break the cap" like characters who do not use Martial Maneuvers.

[AlHazred]

[tangent]
The problem with counting Martial Maneuver damage against a hard DC cap is that you can't Haymaker a Martial Maneuver. So unless you count all Maneuver damage, including Haymaker, against the DC cap, it isn't balanced to count Martial Maneuver damage against a DC cap.

I'm not sure I understand your objection. In my (admittedly limited) experience, Haymaker attacks land far, far less than any other kind of attack. So much so that my players do not usually use them. MA maneuvers, on the other hand, are very popular as you can get reliable bonuses that are relatively cheap.

To simulate a Haymaker, you could write:

10 Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

Buying off the Extra Time limitation would be 3 points; buying a Martial Arts maneuver that was +0 OCV, -1 DCV, +4DC would be 5 points (IIRC). So, you're getting a better deal with the MA.

That example also shows one of the reasons I don't recommend limitations on MA.

[Peregrine]

I'm not sure I understand your objection. In my (admittedly limited) experience, Haymaker attacks land far, far less than any other kind of attack. So much so that my players do not usually use them. MA maneuvers, on the other hand, are very popular as you can get reliable bonuses that are relatively cheap.

To simulate a Haymaker, you could write:

10 Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

Buying off the Extra Time limitation would be 3 points; buying a Martial Arts maneuver that was +0 OCV, -1 DCV, +4DC would be 5 points (IIRC). So, you're getting a better deal with the MA.

That example also shows one of the reasons I don't recommend limitations on MA.

The heart of my objection is this:
1. A character who is at the hard DC cap without Martial Maneuvers can exceed that cap using Standard Maneuvers, Haymaker in particular.
2. A character who is at the hard DC cap using Martial Maneuvers when the Martial Maneuver damage counts against the hard cap cannot exceed the hard cap under any circumstances.

As to "getting a better deal with the MA", that's a given. Any Martial Maneuver is cheaper than the equivalent power; the same goes for any Standard Maneuver.

For an apples-to-apples comparison, here's what HD says (BTW, you forgot the -5 DCV on your Haymaker power build):

Cost    Power
5       Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); 
Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-5 DCV; -2), 
Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

10      High Damage Martial Maneuver: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6 (20 Active Points); 
Side Effects, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-1 DCV; -1/2),
Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2)

(I chose Extreme Side Effect for -5 DCV and Minor Side Effect for -1 DCV)

So every character effectively gets a 5 point power (Haymaker) for free; someone who purchases a 5 point Martial Maneuver effectively gets a 10 point power. Net result: the relevant Maneuver (Standard or Martial) costs 5 points less than the comparable power. Yet the Standard Maneuver can be used to exceed a hard DC cap and the Martial Maneuver can't?

[AlHazred]

If one of my players argues this vehemently about the nitty-gritty of his character's powers, I click to his Skills tab and start commenting about how comparatively few Skills he has, and better places to put his 5 points.

TBH, you're correct in that a non-MA guy can exceed the damage cap by 4 DC. However, the Extra Segment and -5 DCV limitations on it drastically cut back its effectiveness; I've seen four Haymakers used in my last five years of gaming Hero, and exactly one of them landed. One other missed the roll, and the other two were foiled by the Hero getting KOed or moved before it landed. And those were in Heroic level games; with superheroic-level opposition, and a more limited ability to choose your own battles (key strategy in Heroic-level games) I don't think the Haymaker is enough of a benefit to prevent me from including MA in my damage cap.

All that being said, we've derailed this topic enough. The subject is Ranged MA and factors pro and con that the OP should be aware of.

I will add one caveat to my original response: beware of Energy Projectors who max out their damage-dealing potential and design their own MA. Check possible min-max combos carefully for balance against your other distant-damage-dealing dudes.

[Peregrine]

If one of my players argues this vehemently about the nitty-gritty of his character's powers, I click to his Skills tab and start commenting about how comparatively few Skills he has, and better places to put his 5 points.

TBH, you're correct in that a non-MA guy can exceed the damage cap by 4 DC. However, the Extra Segment and -5 DCV limitations on it drastically cut back its effectiveness; I've seen four Haymakers used in my last five years of gaming Hero, and exactly one of them landed. One other missed the roll, and the other two were foiled by the Hero getting KOed or moved before it landed. And those were in Heroic level games; with superheroic-level opposition, and a more limited ability to choose your own battles (key strategy in Heroic-level games) I don't think the Haymaker is enough of a benefit to prevent me from including MA in my damage cap.

All that being said, we've derailed this topic enough. The subject is Ranged MA and factors pro and con that the OP should be aware of.

That's OK. I wasn't necessarily trying to convince you. I was presenting an alternative perspective for public consideration, to introduce the idea.

I will add one caveat to my original response: beware of Energy Projectors who max out their damage-dealing potential and design their own MA. Check possible min-max combos carefully for balance against your other distant-damage-dealing dudes.

I agree, and raise you: "Check possible min-max combos carefully" should be standard GM vetting for all characters, regardless.

[AlHazred]

I agree, and raise you: "Check possible min-max combos carefully" should be standard GM vetting for all characters, regardless.

Yes, but I do it twice with that combo of Powers/MA. Some people can be very sneaky.

[GoldenAge]

John Preston, Gammiton Cleric (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...hnpreston.html

The Preacher (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta.../preacher.html

Chow-Yun Fat (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...howyunfat.html

Roland Deschain -The Dark Tower (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...unslinger.html

The Man With No Name - (a.k.a. Blondie, Joe, Manco) (Surbook's Stuff by Susano)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adapta...movie/man.html

QM

Interestingly, 4 out of 5 of these characters are built as I would have suggested BEFORE I agreed to allow Gun Fu in my campaign. Thanks for the start!!!

However, I'd love to see some more characters built with ranged martial arts (specifically with hand guns) Thanks! (Q: you always seem to come through )

[GoldenAge]

I've been in campaigns where the GM adamantly didn't allow ranged martial arts. And I've been in campaigns where the GM didn't allow any martial arts at all. Really, MA is a tool to reflect a certain kind of fighting, one with a few more options. In other RPGs (one that recently entered its 4th edition springs to mind) there seems to be a, I don't know, fear of allowing characters to be as effective at range as they are hand-to-hand. Which is groundless.

Let me ask you this, what if I created a character who could send his hands through 4th dimensional space to pummel the enemy at range. Would that be acceptable? It's basically a form of Stretching. Now what if I have Martial Arts? Can I use them at range? I can see arguments both for ("Why not? Your hands are deadly weapons!") and against ("Martial Arts are precision maneuvers, and you can't see well enough to land the right blows.") but what it comes down to is simply, do you want them to be that powerful or not?

For the most part, all the MA do is add a few DCs (up to 4) and increase the maximum OCV and DCV your PCs are capable of; if you use hard caps for all three qualities, then whether the PCs got them by taking MA or buying the powers/skills directly is moot. The MA don't usually end up being that much of a cheaper alternative unless you allow limitations on them, which I counsel against.

The only problematic options are Ranged Disarm and Ranged Trip, but those are nonlethal attacks that can either take a ranged target out of sight/effectiveness, or be used at dramatic moments to thwart a villain whose about to get away with his plots by wielding the One Ring/sacrificing the virgin. In either case, it's easy enough to guard against these with a little forethought -- keep them in mind when designing your big final battles, and you'll be okay.

I love the Marvel Comics character The Spot (he just had a great reintroduction in Amazing Spiderman I think)! And I would certainly allow such a character in my campaign. In fact, we already have a martial art villain called Ring (he uses 5 bronze rings) who is built on the invisible stretching that does not cross intervening space.

I'm a story guy... So I rarely put hard limitations on characters (though there are some arbitrary game limitations in Epic City in order to enhance game play). So, to place limitations on MA characters (while not restricting others) wouldn't work (for me). But I totally understand where you're coming from. Thanks!

[GoldenAge]

I'm not sure I understand your objection. In my (admittedly limited) experience, Haymaker attacks land far, far less than any other kind of attack. So much so that my players do not usually use them. MA maneuvers, on the other hand, are very popular as you can get reliable bonuses that are relatively cheap.

To simulate a Haymaker, you could write:

10 Haymaker: Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6; Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2)

Buying off the Extra Time limitation would be 3 points; buying a Martial Arts maneuver that was +0 OCV, -1 DCV, +4DC would be 5 points (IIRC). So, you're getting a better deal with the MA.

That example also shows one of the reasons I don't recommend limitations on MA.

I think I agree here. I haven't seen a Haymaker in my game since 2005

There's also Multiple Power Attacks and Sweeps/Rapic Fire to think about. Can you lump a Haymaker into a Multiple Power attack? You can certainly attack with multiple attacks within your martial art (as long as they don't replicate each other).

[GoldenAge]

what about a hero who uses a taser/ stun gun that shoots electrified corded darts would that be at range

I like this idea and will suggest it to my PC (this IS a good-guy campaign after all)

[bubba smith]

glad i could be of service