To gun fu or not gun fu?

[Kenn]

There is one character in the Champions of Justice where the player and I (I GM) agreed to actually slightly depower the character's energy blasts and then add ranged martial arts.

The rationale is that Powerball's shtick is that he is an ex-major league baseball pitcher, and that he actually is THROWING the balls of energy he produces. As such, we concluded the martial art was a way to represent his skill and different pitches that can be thrown.

4 Fast Ball +0 OCV, +0 DCV, Range +2, Strike+3 DC
4 Breaking Ball +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Range +0, Strike+3 DC
4 Change Up +2 OCV, -2 DCV, Range +2, Strike+1 DC
0 Weapon Element: baseball (default element)
1 Weapon Element: personal energy blasts
4 +1 Ranged Damage Class


The fastball is more accurate over distance. The breaking ball has that little dip at the end which might make hitting the target easier. The change up is slower, but could be even more surprising.

This was a rebuild to better represent the concept rather than a new development. So far we're pleased. It hasn't had that much impact one way or another.

www.rcuhero.net/hsheets/powerball.htm

[TheQuestionMan]

Jelly Bryce
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/957612/posts


<<<More Coming Soon>>>


QM

[lobsterGun]

You are right to avoid gun foo.

If your player wants to play a master of firearms, skill levels and extra damage dice are the only fair way to go. and by fair, I mean fair to the other players...the ones that you made pay full price for their powers.

Here's why: Two ways to write up a 6d6 EB with +2 vs range.

30pts 6d6 EB "Ray Beam"
4 pts +2 Ranged Skill Levels with "Ray Beam"
---
34 pts

vs

15pts 3d6 EB "Ray Beam"
4 pts Basic Shot (+2 Ranged Skill Level, +3 DC)
---
19 pts

You could argue that the non-marital arts example should cost more because it can be used with Haymaker, but is that worth 15 points? If I were the guy that you let buy the martial arts version I'd spend the points on +5Dex and not even bother to kiss Haymaker goodbye on her way out the door.

You could also argue that the problem with ranged martial arts affects normal martial arts too. You would get no argument from me on that point. Martial Arts has always been broken in the hero system for the same reason as noted above.

16pts +4d6 HA "Mighty Fist" (total 6d6)
5pts (10 pts) +2 DCV -1 limitation "only after Mighty Fist"
---
21 pts

vs

8pts 2d6 HA
4pts Martial Strike (comes with +2 DCV and +2d6 HA)
---
12 pts


If you're playing in a talented normal game, Martial arts is a good fit for the simple reason that super powers aren't available, but once you cross the boundary into super land you should leave MA at the border - they have no place there.

[Vulcan]

As much as I love the MA system in HEROs (and I primarily play Martial Artists myself! ) I have come to a similar conclusion. They are just a little bit too point-efficient compared to the power builds they duplicate.

[incrdbil]

If one of my players argues this vehemently about the nitty-gritty of his character's powers, I click to his Skills tab and start commenting about how comparatively few Skills he has, and better places to put his 5 points.

TBH, you're correct in that a non-MA guy can exceed the damage cap by 4 DC. However, the Extra Segment and -5 DCV limitations on it drastically cut back its effectiveness; I've seen four Haymakers used in my last five years of gaming Hero, and exactly one of them landed.

side note: I'm always fascinated by the different experiences related here. I'm used to seeing Haymakers in almost every gaming session.

[bigbywolfe]

Just as a side note, Martial Arts reduce Knockback, as do Killing Attacks, so a RKA (if you are using actual guns) Martial Maneuver will rarely get any extra damage from KB. That may not mean much in Heroic level games, but in some Super games I've seen KB almost double the damage of an attack.

Answering these questions may help you come to a decision: Do you allow regular Martial Maneuvers? Why or why not? If you do allow them, have you found them to be a problem? If you have not found them to be a problem, then why assume Ranged ones will be?

I’d say allow it with the player understanding that you have concerns about it and may require a rewrite if you feel it’s unbalanced. I think that’s much fairer than dismissing it out of hand, especially if you allow regular MAs.

Oh, and lobsterGun, “Basic Shot” only adds 2DC not 3 so the comparison should be 29 points to 19, not 34 to 19. Also +2 Penalty Skill Levels Vs Range is only 3 points, not 4, so that makes it 28 to 19.
Actually, since it takes 2 Martial Maneuver DCs to add 1 Damage Class to a Killing Attack, if you are talking about actual “gun-fu” (in other words, using “guns” traditionally built as RKAs) that makes the comparison more like 23 to 19.

[fbdaury]

Here's why: Two ways to write up a 6d6 EB with +2 vs range.

30pts 6d6 EB "Ray Beam"
4 pts +2 Ranged Skill Levels with "Ray Beam"
---
34 pts

vs

15pts 3d6 EB "Ray Beam"
4 pts Basic Shot (+2 Ranged Skill Level, +3 DC)
---
19 pts

Except that your math is totally off:
(30) 6d6 EB
(3) 2 Range penalty skill levels with EB (RNG bonuses are PSLs vs. range,
not +OCV)
-----------------------
(33)

vs.

(4) Basic Shot (+0 OCV +0 DCV +2 RNG +2 DC/not +3 DC)
(6) Minimum six more pts in ranged MA maneuvers (10 pt minimum
for all MA forms to be used)
(4) +1 DC with all Ranged MA attacks
(15) 3d6 EB
-----------------------
(29)

And, to me, the 4 point difference seems a fair savings for missing out on
a possible +4d6 for Haymakering the blast, since it would be easier to do
so from 8" away, especially if the target is not watching you at the time.

If you're going to compare two things on basis of points cost alone, try to
use the proper costs please.

You could also argue that the problem with ranged martial arts affects
normal martial arts too. You would get no argument from me on that point.
Martial Arts has always been broken in the hero system for the same
reason as noted above.

16pts +4d6 HA "Mighty Fist" (total 6d6)
5pts (10 pts) +2 DCV -1 limitation "only after Mighty Fist"
---
21 pts

vs

8pts 2d6 HA
4pts Martial Strike (comes with +2 DCV and +2d6 HA)
---
12 pts

Again your math is off:
(13) +4d6 Hand Attack (-1/2)
(5) +2 DCV, only after HA (-1)
--------
(18)

vs.

(7) +2d6 Hand attack (-1/2)
(4) Mar Strike ( +0 OCV +2 DCV +2 DC)
(6) Mandatory 6 additonal points MA maneuvers
------------------
(17)

If you're playing in a talented normal game, Martial arts is a good fit
for the simple reason that super powers aren't available, but once
you cross the boundary into super land you should leave MA at the
border - they have no place there.

And who are you decide what does and does not belong in the Super-
heroic genre? Much like Strength being underpriced or mental powers
being innately unbalancing, there are certain wrinkles in the game
system that any GM needs to wrk around but it is not your, or
anyone else's place to tell other GMs what they can and cannot use
in the Champions genre- I for one appreciate the way MAs are handled
in the Hero system.

[lobsterGun]

Except that your math is totally off:
(30) 6d6 EB
(3) 2 Range penalty skill levels with EB (RNG bonuses are PSLs vs. range,
not +OCV)
-----------------------
(33)

vs.

(4) Basic Shot (+0 OCV +0 DCV +2 RNG +2 DC/not +3 DC)
(6) Minimum six more pts in ranged MA maneuvers (10 pt minimum
for all MA forms to be used)
(4) +1 DC with all Ranged MA attacks
(15) 3d6 EB
-----------------------
(29)

Man, I did not come here to get into a flame war, I hope I didn't offend you.

These were just simple back of the wrong envelope calculations. For some reason I was thinking HA was 4 points per level.

But in any case, if we add more martial maneuvers to the character, then we have to pay for them... and that just ends up making the point disparity worse.

Lets add Martial Dodge and Martial Escape to round out the Martial Arts Package.

Note: I reduced the EB to 5d6 to remove the damage class from the equation.

(25) 5d6 EB
(3) 2 Range penalty skill levels with EB (RNG bonuses are PSLs vs. range, not +OCV)
(4) : +2 DCV with one maneuver : Simulated Martial Dodge
(8) : +25 strength -1 1/2 only for escaping -1/2 No figured characteristics : Simulated Martial Escape
-----------------------
(40)

vs.

(4) Basic Shot (+0 OCV +0 DCV +2 RNG +2 DC)
(4) Martial Dodge
(4) Martial Escape
(15) 3d6 EB
-----------------------
(27)


If we do the same thing to the HtH example we get a similar result.

[fbdaury]

Not offended by your math but by your claim that the current MA system does not belong in Champions, as it allows players to have characters like Shang Chi, Lady Shiv, Iron Fist, ect. in their games without it being too cost prohibitive for what they are getting.

However, if you want to go High-End Martial Artists, there are much more abusive ways to go than MAs- the Martial Art Multipower being a perfect example:

(60) Art of the Golden Grasshopper (60 active point reserve)
(8m) Grasshopper Strikes- +8d6 Hand Attack (-1/2), 0 end cost (+1/2)
(8m) Grasshopper Strength- +40 Str, 0 end cost (+1/2), only for exert
strength effects (grabs/disarms/etc, -1/2)
(5m) Grasshopper Dodge- +5 DCV levels
(6m) Grasshooper Grace- +6 hand to hand combat skills levels
(9m) Grasshopper Spines- 2d6 hka at 0 end cost (+1/2)
(6m) Grasshopper Chirp- 10d6 hearing group flash, 0 end (+1/2); No
Range (-1/2)
(7m) Grasshopper Tap/Bite- 5d6 NND (variable*, +1), Variable SFX
(NND defenses, limited group, +1/4); No Range (-1/2)
---------------------------------------------------------------
Now, for the above 109 points (I did mention High-end), you should reasonably be able to model almost every MA maneuver- the UMA contains a total of 172 points worth of maneuvers and this pool should be able to cover just about every one- for less points and to better effect as well, as you may add the Haymaker to any of these powers and with the potential to adjust the OCV and DCV to where you would reasonably hit with that attack. Do I think this is abusive? Heck no, I like it! Do I think that it's a bit much for most heroes? Heck yes- that's why lesser effects are modeled with MA maneuvers. But that's just me, YMMV.

[Kal'El Wayne]

Personally, all martial arts skills are disallowed in my game. But you can replicate them with 'powers'.

I am making packages for everything (usually 20-50 pnts each) for players who are new to Hero and don't want to work out every single point value.

I divide the packages up, into things like 'Background' (Cop, Professor, Spy, etc), 'Hero training' (Avengers, JLA, League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, etc) and, most importantly, 'Powers' (Brick, Speedster, Gadgets, etc).

Powers is divided up into types of power: Martial arts, Gadgets, Magic, Superhuman, etc.

Martial Arts is divided up into a variety of 'styles': Iron Fist, Jade Dragon, etc. One of these 'styles' is an example of Gun Fu.

These styles have additional packages for improved mastery of the style.

So the first package of Gun Fu (Actually called 'Brothers of the Gun') is similar to Grammaton Clerics, with cool moves to evade traditional trajectories of fire while maximising kill zones.

The second level is like 'Wanted', the movie. It can shoot round corners and shoot bullets out of the air.

[steamteck]

Personally I think the martial arts rules are some of the coolest things about HERO heroic AND superheroic campaignwise. However, none of my players gun fus because it really doesn't make sense to us with the extra damage stuff etc. Never occured to anyone until brought on these boards. Just rapid attack, two weapons and some skill and penalty levels and we're good.

[Hyper-Man]

Personally I think the martial arts rules are some of the coolest things about HERO heroic AND superheroic campaignwise. However, none of my players gun fus because it really doesn't make sense to us with the extra damage stuff etc. Never occured to anyone until brought on these boards. Just rapid attack, two weapons and some skill and penalty levels and we're good.

I agree that HERO Martial Arts are really cool.

I think it's worth mentioning that Martial Arts, whether Ranged or HTH, are also just one of several mechanics* in HERO that are essentially 'hard coded' to a particular type of damage special effect:

Targeting a weak spot on an opponent.

*Others include Find Weakness, the optional Hit Location rules and Talents or Super Skills like Deadly Blow.

All have their own pros and cons and can go a long way toward flavoring the combats in a particular campaign and genre.

The biggest problems occur when you try to mix multiple mechanics together (Find Weakness & Hit Locations, Deadly Blow & Martial Arts, etc...).

Gun Fu is fine as long as the GM and player both understand that a character with it should not also have Find Weakness and/or Deadly Blow for the same attack.

HM

[steamteck]

I agree that HERO Martial Arts are really cool.

I think it's worth mentioning that Martial Arts, whether Ranged or HTH, are also just one of several mechanics* in HERO that are essentially 'hard coded' to a particular type of damage special effect:

Targeting a weak spot on an opponent.


HM

I don't really agree with that one. Even with my meager studies of martial arts I know a trained fighter actually can generate more force with a punch. an offensive strike does more damaged because its modeling a more powerful attack like a spin kick , not a more precise one.

[Peregrine]

I don't really agree with that one. Even with my meager studies of martial arts I know a trained fighter actually can generate more force with a punch. an offensive strike does more damaged because its modeling a more powerful attack like a spin kick , not a more precise one.

Precision attacks in the martial arts are modeled in Hero as Martial Maneuvers targeting specific areas, either doing extra damage because of the target location (and avoiding Hit Location penalties) or as NND (nerve strikes, choke holds, etc.), or as the Deadly Blow talent. Straight up extra damage is a matter of skill and training to enable the fighter to deliver more force to the target due to better body mechanics and (in superheroic or wuxia-ish settings) focusing internal energies (chi, etc.).

(IOW: "I agree with the poster above and here provide more details based on my own knowledge and experience.")

[Hyper-Man]

I don't really agree with that one. Even with my meager studies of martial arts I know a trained fighter actually can generate more force with a punch. an offensive strike does more damaged because its modeling a more powerful attack like a spin kick , not a more precise one.

Ok, I'll concede to a point on the HTH Martial Arts. They can generate brute force as well as precision.

But then why do the rules say subtract an additional 1d6 from the BODY of a Martial Arts attack when figuring Knockback?

Also, how would a Ranged Martial Art maneuver cause a bullet to generate more damage from a gun if not precision?