Do other Characteristics scale like STR?

**Yamo** · Feb 23rd, '03, 06:40 PM

It's pretty clear from the STR Table that effective STR doubles in incriments of 5. 15 STR is twice 10 STR and half of 20 STR, for example.

But because there's no INT Table or PRE Table (for example), I'm having trouble determining if this is supposed to hold true for all Characteristics.

If I want to be twice as smart as average, do I want to buy a 15 or 20 INT?

I hope future editions of HERO will be more clear on this.

**Lord Liaden** · Feb 23rd, '03, 08:25 PM

I've seen this question raised on the boards before, and the short answer is that there hasn't been any official quantification of other Characteristics in that way in any HERO book to this point.

I have to ask, though: in the real world, how would your measure multiples of Smartness, for example? IQ scores? Processing speed? Memory capacity? Creativity? IQ is the only one of those that pretends to provide a scale ranking, and it's been rather thoroughly discredited as being too tied to class-based assumptions. I couldn't imagine how to measure Charisma in the real world, and Comeliness is a whole 'nother argument in itself.

Strength is really the only Characteristic that readily lends itself to a quantification within game terms, since the amount of force a person can exert can be objectively measured and a number assigned to it. Other physical abilities are far more nebulous. It's tempting to raise this question since HERO assigns a numerical value to those abilities for gaming purposes, but trying to figure out how many points it takes to be "twice as smart" is a meta-gaming concept that doesn't have a lot of relevance to reality. If you really want such a measure, you'd probably be as well off assigning a number that seems reasonable to you.

**Yamo** · Feb 23rd, '03, 08:54 PM

You don't find it at all troubling that there's no effort to explain, in even very general real world terms, what a (for example) 15 INT actually means? I mean, you wouldn't have to be as concrete as "10 STR = 100kg lifting capacity", but how would I design a character who's just a little brighter than average versus one that's a genius versus one that's a supergenius? What do the numbers MEAN? This is what I'm having trouble with; matching what I'm imagining to the stats.

**Chaosliege** · Feb 23rd, '03, 09:09 PM

My super-geniuses always have around a 25 INT. my smarter than average characters are usualy between 13 and 17.

**Lord Liaden** · Feb 23rd, '03, 09:30 PM

Ahh, I see what you're getting at: you're looking for the benchmarks as to how characters' abilities compare to each other. Well, that I may be able to help you with.

There are a couple of ways to deal with this. One would be to compare the Skill Rolls that characters can have, according to the "Degrees of Skill" sidebars beginning on FREd p. 28. That describes how each level of Skill Roll relates to the character's ability with that Skill, from basic Familiarity up to Incredibly Skilled (20- or more), which is the realm of the superhuman. Of course, a particular Skill Roll can be affected by Levels as well as raw Characteristics, so it's not a perfect method.

OTOH, both Champions and Champions Universe lists categories for all Characteristics, going from Weak up to Legendary (the greatest figures from myth or history), and into Superhuman. Champions describes what these categories mean relative to each other. For Intelligence for example, the range is Weak 1-2, Challenged 3-5, Average 6-10, Skilled 11-13, Competent 14-20, Legendary 21-50, and Superhuman 51+.

I know that you aren't fond of looking for data in other than the core rulebook, but if you want relative comparisons for Characteristics, that's where you'll find them.

**keithcurtis** · Feb 23rd, '03, 09:41 PM

Dang, LL! You are the players' friend!

Keith "What HE said" Curtis

**Chaosliege** · Feb 23rd, '03, 09:44 PM

The only thing I would change is the superhuman level for INT. I've never made, nor have I ever seen any character with a 51+ INT. And I've seen quite a few that are suposed to be superhumanly inteligent.

**Lord Liaden** · Feb 23rd, '03, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Chaosliege
The only thing I would change is the superhuman level for INT. I've never made, nor have I ever seen any character with a 51+ INT. And I've seen quite a few that are suposed to be superhumanly inteligent.

I know where you're coming from. I guess it's a question of whether you define "super-intelligent" as simply being far superior to the human average, or "superhuman" i.e. beyond the achievement of Homo Sapiens without augmentation. HERO seems to take the former view. The only character I've yet seen with an INT of 50 is Teleios, in Champions Universe. His other stats are at the upper limit of Legendary as well, since he's supposed to be "the Perfect Man". The next closest I ever saw was the Ultimate Master Mind (Binder of the Ultimates, accidentally boosted in Enemies Assemble), with a 43 INT.

Reed Richards would probably be close to 50, though, and maybe Bruce Wayne.

**keithcurtis** · Feb 23rd, '03, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by Chaosliege
The only thing I would change is the superhuman level for INT. I've never made, nor have I ever seen any character with a 51+ INT. And I've seen quite a few that are suposed to be superhumanly inteligent.

I have to agree on this one. 51 seems rather excessive. Any 3 point Int skill is automatically 19-. This seems so far beyond the realm of other characters that I couldn't bring myself to allow it for a PC, but would only reserve it for gods.

Keith "And only really, really smart gods, at that" Curtis

**Alibear** · Feb 24th, '03, 02:33 AM

Are we sure that Int 51+ is Superhuman and not 31+?
I 'm at work but will ask Fred later.

**Zaratustra** · Feb 24th, '03, 03:03 AM

Well, you could consider that a INT 15 person would get to a solution as smart as two people with INT 10 could if they discussed intelligently, or what an INT 10 person would find if they had twice the time to think and research.

I don't know how to apply that to COM, but COM is messy anyway.

**Trebuchet** · Feb 24th, '03, 04:55 AM

Remember that HERO specifies that INT is more a measure of how quickly and accurately a character processes information and not necessarily a measure of "IQ". Hence their example of a Nobel Prize-winning physicist with a 10 INT who works slowly and methodically.

I give supergeniuses in my game INT in the upper 20s, and we have a Nobel Prize winning physicist (Bought the Perk "Nobel Prize Winner") on our superhero team with a 28 INT. She also bought a Talent to further represent her intellect, Lightning Calculator. She's our team brick.

**tenebre** · Feb 24th, '03, 06:27 AM

good point.

i gow ith 30 being the maximum super genius.

anything over that they are so intelligent they become insane.

good for super duper villians but not much for anything else.

its realli impossible to quanitify intelligence. it is extremely subjective.

**Chaosliege** · Feb 24th, '03, 08:14 AM

Originally posted by Lord Liaden

Reed Richards would probably be close to 50, though, and maybe Bruce Wayne.

I don't think I agree with you on Bruce Wayne. He'd be inteligent, but he's no Reed Richards. He has tons of detective skills and levels.

But I look at it like this. Reed Richards is considered one of the smartest people on the planet. As smart as Doom. In champions, I think everyone agrees that Destroyer is our version of DOOM, albeit more powerful. So what is Destroyers INT? I don't have CKC, so I don't know, but that would be my basis for 'Super Genius'.

**Monolith** · Feb 24th, '03, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by Chaosliege
So what is Destroyers INT? I don't have CKC, so I don't know, but that would be my basis for 'Super Genius'.

Dr. Destroyer's INT is the same as it was in 4th Edition, but he is not the smartest person in the Champions Universe. Teleios is vastly more intelligent than Dr. D. There might be some Empyreans and other entities which are far more intelligent that Destroyer too, but we are a long way from seeing many of those stats.