Proposed Solution for Limited, yet Super-Powerful Magic in MPs

**slaughterj** · Feb 24th, '03, 11:24 AM

I and others have long had an "issue" with powers in Multipowers being limited by their Active Points equal to or less than the MP AP. Clearly this limitation serves several purposes, primarily balance, but also what would it mean to not have such a cap on an MP. The MP is a nice way to get lots of spells for a mage cheaply, but it doesn't allow for the occasional limited super-powerful spell (and we often see spell or power constructs that have an abnormally high AP (e.g., Damage Shield) compared to the relative strength of the effect, especially with certain limitations applied).

My potential solution is, for certain magic campaigns, to let certain limitations applied to a power in an MP to exceed the MP AP. The primary candidate would be Extra Time, though other limitations are possible as well, such as Gradual Effect. There are a couple of ways this can be done:
1. The AP of the power in the MP could exceed the MP AP by the amount of the limitation applied to the power. E.g., for an Energy Blast that had a -1 Extra Time Lim applied to it (example of a lightning bolt from the sky that took time to brew), the AP of the EB could exceed the MP AP by double (based on the -1 lim applied in reverse). To put it into #s, with a 30pt MP, you could have a 6D6 EB attack, requiring a normal time to cast, &/or you could have a 12D6 EB with a -1 Extra Time Lim in the MP (taking the 60AP EB, and applying the -1 Extra Time Lim). The application of these lims would be for comparison purposes to the MP AP value, to see if the power would fit, but the actual cost calculation would be done as normal.
2. The above can be done, but with an extra twist, that the AP used by the slot when active is also reduced by the Lims deemed to be an exception in the campaign. Using the example above, you could buy an 8D6 EB with -1 Extra Time Lim, which under this method would only use 20AP of the MP pool (rather than all of it), meaning the character could still run another 10AP of spells. Note, that without this 2nd alternative, you would just be "hand-waving" the fact that the spell in #1 above exceeded the MP AP, and just saying that it used the whole MP, so this might be a way to consistently apply the proposed exception, however, just using #1 above might be good enough for some to avoid issues of abuse.

This seems a nice way to let mages create long casting time summoning spells and other genre-appropriate effects, without having to "break the bank" or find that MPs are unworkable for certain sorts of campaigns. Any suggestions are appreciated and if this is unclear, I can work more at describing the solution.

**Chris Goodwin** · Feb 24th, '03, 11:55 AM

Essentially what you're saying is that an MP reserve is not an Active Point limit but a Real Point limit.

If it works for you, who are we to tell you no?

**tesuji** · Feb 24th, '03, 12:08 PM

could you accomplish similar things buy applying a limitation such as extra time to the multipower?

Example...

I buy my normal magic multipower up to say 80 ap with the usual -2 worth of lims for my magic. net cost 27 points.

I buy say an additional 80 ap with -2 worth of extra time making the additional cost something like 16 cp. The net cost for the pool is 43.

Normal spells will cost between 1-3 cp (80 ap max / 3 / 10)

Rituals can go over the 80 ap but that means they get the big whammy of -2 extra time (5 minutes to a day? book not here)

is this the kind of thing you are looking for, just cheaper?

**slaughterj** · Feb 24th, '03, 12:43 PM

Originally posted by archer
Essentially what you're saying is that an MP reserve is not an Active Point limit but a Real Point limit.

If it works for you, who are we to tell you no?

Not at all, this is something I wasn't clear on. The exception would only apply to certain specified limitations, perhaps only Extra Time (replicating powerful magic involving lengthy rituals), though maybe also Gradual Effect (for powerful curses). It wouldn't apply to the lim values for other lims like Gestures, Incantations, Concentration, Require Magic Skill Roll, Foci, etc. So you would perform an initial calculation based on the Extra Time lim (or other possible lim) to see if the spell would fit in the MP, but then still apply all the limitations to the actual cost of the slot purchased.

**slaughterj** · Feb 24th, '03, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by tesuji
could you accomplish similar things buy applying a limitation such as extra time to the multipower?

Example...

I buy my normal magic multipower up to say 80 ap with the usual -2 worth of lims for my magic. net cost 27 points.

I buy say an additional 80 ap with -2 worth of extra time making the additional cost something like 16 cp. The net cost for the pool is 43.

Normal spells will cost between 1-3 cp (80 ap max / 3 / 10)

Rituals can go over the 80 ap but that means they get the big whammy of -2 extra time (5 minutes to a day? book not here)

is this the kind of thing you are looking for, just cheaper?

That's certainly another possible approach, and was mentioned by someone in the "What do you want to see in FH" thread. A problem with this, however, is that you still have a flat upper level at the ritual magic level (and it "violates" the rules according to a Steve Long response to a post I had on the previous message boards, but that's neither here nor there since I'm proposing a rule exception here too

). The flat upper level in the MP is the problem in the first place, and while raising it significantly might solve the problem, it might promote maxing out the power of each ritual, rather than particularizing the effect of each.

Your suggestion is also problematic because all ritual spells would take equally as long, though the summoned lightning bolt might should be 1 Turn (clouds rolling in and all), vs the summoned demon taking 1 Day. This curtails the creativity potential of varying length rituals. Of course, presumably you could set up a multi-stage MP, with more and more steps of longer time periods - might be cumbersome, but hard to say if more or less so than my suggestion.

I'm doubting that mages would have very many high-end ritual spells, so the extended MP suggested might be a bit of overkill?

However, the benefits of your suggested approach are (1) that you're paying for the advanced features (rather than a campaign exception by GM fiat; though it is possible that some sort of cost mechanism could be established for this) and (2) that you don't have to finagle points to figure out how they work under the MP AP in my suggestion (see my #2 above).

Interesting suggestion.

**Markdoc** · Feb 25th, '03, 04:26 AM

My concern is that it would raise the bar in terms of potential abuse. OK, the GM could control it, but there's enough abuse potential in most magic users worry me as is :-)

Letting someone take extra time to cast their invisible armour spell, which is a single charge lasting one month, for example, is a tradeoff most mages would gladly make!

And that's speaking as someone who LIKES multipowers in FH!

My solution is to split ritual magic off as a seperate category - a way of harnessing magical powers too powerful for a normal mage to control and remain sane. If they want to buy the 167 point SCAR LAND spell to render a whole province uninhabitable - which is not something you do every day - then they can but it as a heavily-limited power outside the MP.

MPs already have the potential for severe abuse in a FH game - I'd be very wary indeed of lifting the cap on them

cheers, Mark

**The Mad GM** · Feb 26th, '03, 04:53 AM

It would make a cloistered mage in his tower much more powerful if all his spells were able to be indirect, invisible effect, and megascaled, but the average 'go out and zap baddies' mage would have little real use for it.

It is a big genie to let out of the bottle, game balance wise.

I know this for a fact because back in the day we assumed that MP and VPP pools were Real, not Active, point caps, and things got way out of hand. It makes people without MPs and VPPs (any non-magic users) vastly outgunned. Defenses, triggered spells, movement, etc suddenly becomes much more powerful. And because of the high AP, they will be difficult to suppress or dispel.

I realize that this is not your specific intent, and you would limit it to certain limitations, but just be careful with it.

I'd restrict such things to being plot devices, myself. Throwing a curse from the protection of a fortress is not very heroic anyway. Look at LOTR.

**Old Man** · Feb 26th, '03, 12:25 PM

For things like mega magic, have the player construct the spell outside of the normal MP or VPP. They just have to take 1 Charge (-2), Charges Never Recover(-2) in addition to any other limitations you might want. That brings the real cost down and since the points are gone forever, players will be reluctant to do it very often.

**slaughterj** · Feb 26th, '03, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Shadowpup
For things like mega magic, have the player construct the spell outside of the normal MP or VPP. They just have to take 1 Charge (-2), Charges Never Recover(-2) in addition to any other limitations you might want. That brings the real cost down and since the points are gone forever, players will be reluctant to do it very often.

I'm looking for magic that can be used repeatedly, however, like summoning balrogs, flinging powerful geas, etc.

**Markdoc** · Mar 6th, '03, 04:05 AM

This is theproblem though - if you let players violate the points limits to Summon Balrogs, them everyone is gonna want one....

**mattingly** · Mar 6th, '03, 04:47 AM

if you let players violate the points limits to Summon Balrogs

And instead of buying a Slavishly Devoted Balrog at a +1, it's so much cheaper to buy Summon Balrog, Ranged (+1/2), and have him pop up inside the enemy camp...