Supers in the Third World

[Mutant for Hire]

How many people see supervillains and perhaps even organization-sponsored types taking over in the less developed or stable parts of the world?

Of course as I observed in another thread, there is the fact that a super cannot singly overthrow and conquer a nation, they can raise forces, launch a coup. And supers have certain advantages in raising such forces, mentalists especailly.

The proposition of native superheroes preventing such a thing from happening may not necessarily be the case in situations where the existing government is exceedingly corrupt? What about a superhero seeking to overthrow the government and establish a fair and just administration.

One of the things I like about Doctor Doom is that technically he is a fairly benevolent despot. His country is peaceful and prosperous. For a real world example, Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler, who committed all sorts of atrocities is also considered by some to be a national hero. His land was beset by powers from without and he managed to hold on despite that.

You'd think some of these would-be world conquering types would start off with a single nation and then expand from there. Some brilliant if deranged gadgeteer would set up a high tech technocracy, or a powerful sorceror would set up a kingdom of magic. Imagine someone who sets up an aristocracy of metahumans over the non-powered masses. Or mutants setting up their own Israel where they can live free of persecution.

How have people handled this?

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
How many people see supervillains and perhaps even organization-sponsored types taking over in the less developed or stable parts of the world?

Of course as I observed in another thread, there is the fact that a super cannot singly overthrow and conquer a nation, they can raise forces, launch a coup. And supers have certain advantages in raising such forces, mentalists especailly.

The proposition of native superheroes preventing such a thing from happening may not necessarily be the case in situations where the existing government is exceedingly corrupt? What about a superhero seeking to overthrow the government and establish a fair and just administration.

One of the things I like about Doctor Doom is that technically he is a fairly benevolent despot. His country is peaceful and prosperous. For a real world example, Vlad Tepes, Vlad the Impaler, who committed all sorts of atrocities is also considered by some to be a national hero. His land was beset by powers from without and he managed to hold on despite that.

You'd think some of these would-be world conquering types would start off with a single nation and then expand from there. Some brilliant if deranged gadgeteer would set up a high tech technocracy, or a powerful sorceror would set up a kingdom of magic. Imagine someone who sets up an aristocracy of metahumans over the non-powered masses. Or mutants setting up their own Israel where they can live free of persecution.

How have people handled this?

In my dark future Marvel game I had Saddam hussein contact and ally with Magneto dring the Iran-Iraq war. Magneto conquered the entire area and established a mutant nation, a haven during the darkest days of mutant persecution. Partly in response to this threat the US actually backed away from much of its anti-mutant programs. My PCs were never sure whther the nation Magneto built (but officially resigned as executive of) was an ally or a threat.

[Monolith]

In the Champions Universe it would be fairly difficult for a supervillain to take over a country. They might rule a country through birth or election, but taking one over would be a difficult thing.

If the nation in question were an unimportant Third World country the UN might not ask for the Security Council to send in military troups, but you can bet that UNTIL troops, and probably UNITY as well, would be sent in to help deal with the problem. If the country were important, or had resources which the UN deemed important, you could probably bet the military intervention would be taken along with the UNTIL and UNITY forces.

UNTIL is a major force around the world and I would imagine one of its prime directives would be to help maintain governmental stability in an unstable superhuman enviroment. If this were not the case every country in the Second and Third World would be rules by a superhuman of some type.

[Blackout]

Any super-villain taking over a sovereign nation kinda presupposes that all the world's heroes just sit back and let it happen. Which doesn't seem terribly likely to me. Not impossible mind you, just unlikely. There would, of course, be many heroes who didn't think it was their place to get involved. There would also be many who really couldn't do anything about it. All it takes, though, is one guy or gal of Superman-esque power, and the villain is done.

Now, if the REAL villain was a mega-Egoist... He could set up some "lesser" villain to perform this coup, and when the Uber-Hero comes in to save the day, well, the REAL bad guy just mind controls him and uses him to do all the dirty work.

And then the other heroes have an even bigger mess to deal with. Could be fun to play!

[Evil Steve]

Blackout, mind if I steal that?

[ProfessorM@ss]

Originally posted by Blackout
Any super-villain taking over a sovereign nation kinda presupposes that all the world's heroes just sit back and let it happen. Which doesn't seem terribly likely to me. Not impossible mind you, just unlikely. There would, of course, be many heroes who didn't think it was their place to get involved. There would also be many who really couldn't do anything about it. All it takes, though, is one guy or gal of Superman-esque power, and the villain is done.

I disagree, for three main reasons:

1) Your argument presupposes that said villain is not of Superman-esque power, himself.

2) You're not taking into account the villain (like Doctor Doom, for example) who is a dictator, but still better than what preceded him. Popular support is a strong theme in villain-dominated nations as we see them in comic books.

3) The villain will likely have an infrastructure to support his rule, if he's smart. An army, political lobbyists, other villains.

An example from my campaign setting:

Carlos Iago is a metahuman with a single, potent power: he can control natural phenomena like weather, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, tidal waves, etc. He is supported by several metahumans, including a few who are quite powerful, but easily swayed by his massive charisma.

Marshalling rebels in his native Peru, he slowly builds an army by uniting various rebel factions from various South American nations, including superhuman rebels who are not happy at the ill-treatment they've received in countries like Brazil, Chile, etc.

With this massive support, he launches an all-out attack on the area covered by the Amazon rainforest. A short three years later, he has established a new nation: Amazonia, which eats up a massive chunk of South America.

It's a military-run dictatorship, with two very special characteristics: 1) It supports superhumans from any country, acting as a haven for them. 2) The populace is reasonably well-treated, and their standard of living is very high.

Yes, if the citizens step out of line, they get brutally punished. Yes, it was a hostile invasion. But Iago made something perfectly clear to the world: any interference from foreign heroes would lead to massive natural disasters. A few sniper operations were tried and failed, due to Iago's cadre of superhumans.

That's an example of how a villain conquered a country in my setting.

--->M@ss

[Mutant for Hire]

Originally posted by ProfessorM@ss
I disagree, for three main reasons:

1) Your argument presupposes that said villain is not of Superman-esque power, himself.

2) You're not taking into account the villain (like Doctor Doom, for example) who is a dictator, but still better than what preceded him. Popular support is a strong theme in villain-dominated nations as we see them in comic books.

3) The villain will likely have an infrastructure to support his rule, if he's smart. An army, political lobbyists, other villains.

4) There's also the fact that for one nation to intervene in another's affairs where there is not a clear provocation to the invading nation is politically very problematic. The fact is that I don't see how UNTIL can simply invade every nation where it doesn't like the change of administration. Effectively this puts the UN as a supergovernment determining the affairs of lesser governments.

5) Extending from above, not every nation is going to necessarily want UNTIL troops in there even if they're not happy with their new ruler. A lot of nations aren't too thrilled with other nations coming in and messing around with them. A lot of third world nations have their pride and are going to view an overthrow by a metahuman as an internal problem. It would pretty much play into the new dictator's hands to rally the people against the UN. UNTIL troops could run into a lot of popular resistance from people telling them to go home.

Think about it, how many nations are going to be happy with the idea of a foreign power marching in, tossing out whoever is ruling them and then installing someone else not of their choosing. Or forcing democratic elections. It sends a message that their children who need to be made to do the right thing.

6) The question is will the United States and a lot of other nations to have the political will to do such a thing. Unless a nation is strategically important in some way, the US probably couldn't care less what happens to a lot of the world. Iraq has oil and is one of a number of Islamic oil-producing states. North Korea has this nuclear issue. For a lot of smaller countries which are small, poor and have no strategic importance, why would anyone care?

7) Sometimes its too dangerous to intervene. Think about the collapse of the Soviet Union. Now imagine a coup by former Soviet superheroes, perhaps the Soviet's premier team of superheroes who vow to clean up the nation and make it right (shades of the Authorty). Is the UN or anyone going to invade a nuclear superpower? Why didn't the United States intervene to restore the Shah back to power after he was tossed out?

--

Now that said, there are likely to be some UN regulations here. The fact is that the US is using UN arms inspectors and Saddam's researching and building mass weapons of destruction as a pretext for invasion. In a superhero world no doubt certain other weapons and things like mind control are frowned on as well. There could be pretexts for invasion if supervillains take over by certain means such as mind control (at least provably so) and for the use of or production of certain other weapons that make other nations nervous.

Short of that, tradition dictates that a government wishing to seek a change in administration of some other government goes and funds and supports a rebel movement in the country in question. The US has done that repeatedly. Why did the US do this instaead of just invading and installing the people they liked? Because they knew they'd be condemned for it all over and the people installed would need US troops backing them up to stay in power, which would really have sent their popularity through the sewer.

For UNTIL to take the strategy of tossing out supervillains who sieze power, they'd practically have to have occupation troops in a most of third world nations around the globe. And those troops would be very unpopular.

Incidentally the backing issue can work to a supervillain's favor. As long as a nation secures the blessing of some major power, in these days the United States or in previous eras the US or the USSR, they can get backing and recognition after they take over. And VIPER and ARGENT and other organizations might well back a popular uprising to have a base of operations where the local government turns a blind eye to them on purpose.

Two types of supervillains (or supers in general) have special advantages. The gadgeteer and the magician. A gadgeteer can promise to turn their nation into a high tech utopia (and might actually succeed) turning it from an underdeveloped nation to a high tech power. A magician working in the native traditions of the land might revive cultural pride and ask people to shuck all this western technological imperialism.

[Lord Liaden]

Excellent thesis, MfH! You've obviously given this quite a bit of thought.

Good points to keep in mind in the real world, too.

[Blackout]

In my reply to the hypothetical situation under discussion, I wasn't talking about other nations getting involved (or, at least, not directly), nor was I talking about nationally sponsored heroes (or teams). I'm not going to even try to say that the justification for actual nations NOT getting involved is flawed - because it's not. What I'm talking about are individual heroes (or hero teams).

If, say, Oculon went out and tried to take over Albania...there's gonna be some hero who has a problem with that. And they aren't going to be bothered by the potential for an ugly international incident.

My argument for superheroic intervention to stop a villain-led coup also presupposes something else. Namely, that the villain is an established, known criminal. If no one knows that the villain is a villain, the heroes of the world probably wouldn't get involved.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea would be seriously fun to play, and it could be handled (and realistically so - if that matters to you) in MANY different ways.

And, as far as the villain-who-would-be-king being of Superman-esque power goes - and this applies to player characters also... No matter how powerful you are, there's always someone who can kick your butt.

One other thing. If you were to run a scenario like that in your game, no matter how it's handled, it's going to have some VERY wide reaching side effects. Just imagine how heroes who have no governmental ties would be treated if they DID get involved (and the repercussions for ALL heroes). Or, if the heroes DO have governmental ties, what kinda reaction is that going to cause if they decide to get involved anyway?

And, hey, just because some heroes TRY to stop the bad guy it doesn't mean they'll succeed.

[Blackout]

Originally posted by Evil Steve
Blackout, mind if I steal that?

Go right ahead! It's "just" an idea...I've got plenty of them.

[Trebuchet]

In my campaign the major villain was legally (and honestly) elected the President of Columbia by promising to clean out the drug cartels and the Marxist guerrillas that have so long plagued Columbia. (The fact that he survived two assassination attempts didn't hurt his campaign at all.) He was elected and kept his campaign promise, exterminating the gangs in only a few weeks. So now the world's most powerful sorcerer (All 1600 points, 250 Cosmic VPP bit of him) rules a relatively wealthy nation, and is now looking to expand into Venezuela, Ecuador and Peru to make a "United States of South America." He's appealing to Hispanic pride, Indian resentment, and building himself a nice little base of operations for his ultimate rulership of Earth as a benevolent dictator for all eternity. (Since he's immortal, he can afford to take his time and do it right. He considers superhero interference as "quality control".)

What else would Quetzlcoatl do for his people?

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire
How many people see supervillains and perhaps even organization-sponsored types taking over in the less developed or stable parts of the world?

...

One of the things I like about Doctor Doom...

How have people handled this?

I haven't done much with it in games even though I find it interesting. In my earliest coherent campaign world Dr. Doom was the ruler of Scilla and Charybdis. He had them created out of the Pacific and they were sort of an ultra-capitalist (free market with almost no rules at all) dystopia reflecting Doom's own obsession with capitalist might-makes-right anarchy. Correspondingly, he ran a vast international criminal network semi-covertly from there. In my next campaign world which was largely a derivation/fix of the first there wasn't anything going on as far as metahuman rulers/conquerors. In my current mostly non-derivative world Dr. Doom is actually the ruler of Russia (and although he's popularly known as Dr. Doom in the West, he has a real name and is not Dr. Doom to the Russians). He is trying to rebuild Russia but he isn't known to be using his rumored mystical powers or his scientific prowess. In fact he basically has to appear not to be doing so as that would trigger more tension with the West than he needs or wants right now. So he hasn't done anything like offer the rebellious Magneto a haven or some-such, and is not known to be engaged in any schemes to take over the world. But he is much more effective and scary than Putin and is perceived to be a threat by the US.

Throughout all of my games supers have had a large role in 3rd world strife, though, as they are often mercenaries or cause-oriented and can be highly disruptive in a small state with limited resources. In particular during the post-colonial era many metahumans fought throughout the 3rd world, capitalizing on and further fueling the instability.

In my current campaign in United States political history supers have had significant roles. Nixon employed a mentalist to illegally control enemies and a virtual civil war of metahumans ensued once the discovery was made.

[zornwil]

Originally posted by ZootSoot
In my dark future Marvel game I had Saddam hussein contact and ally with Magneto dring the Iran-Iraq war. Magneto conquered the entire area and established a mutant nation, a haven during the darkest days of mutant persecution. Partly in response to this threat the US actually backed away from much of its anti-mutant programs. My PCs were never sure whther the nation Magneto built (but officially resigned as executive of) was an ally or a threat.

Along these lines, I forgot to post in my last message Magneto rallied mutants to the cause of establishing their own independent community, Origin, in the Mohave desert of Arizona, not too far from Yucca. He did not get involved as a direct government leader but dabbled in the city-states' politics. It ended in a Waco to the power of X disaster. The 1 year anniversary of the founding of Origin is coming up; a civil suit against the federal government is pending on behalf of the 719 dead mutants.

Magneto in my world would scorn any human attempts to involve him in geopoltiics, he's far too idealistic, but I like your idea a lot.

[Mutant for Hire]

One more point. Something to bear in mind is that the revival of superheroes is often linked to a revival of magical power (re the Champions Universe). In many lands there are often all sorts of mystic powers associated with monarchs of a given land, or other mythological powers or responsibilities of the kingship

So what happens to England magic returns? Is it possible to affect the whole land by casting a spell on the Queen of England (though reputedly it was the king and the land who were one). Could various powers in a realm demand (and perhaps even choose a king? A lot of lands have had traditions of monarchy a lot longer than they have had ones of democracy...

[st barbara]

Absolutely "Mutant For Hire". Again harking back to when i was creating characters around the world I had two nations "Hispaniola" (A combination of "Haiti" and "The Dominican Republic") and Colombia as "Metarchies" (countries controlled by supers !) I did this because the heros that I had in the general area were either too scattered or too busy to stop them when they were setting things up, and because from these two places the villains can do lots of nasty things throughout BOTH Americas ! It is easy to imagine "Dr Destroyer" or "Terror Inc" taking over some third world country and using it as a base, while claiming "diplomatic immunity !" (In a bad South African accent !) whenever they are about to be arrested by the heros/authorities !