I know it's been done before, but ...JLA vs. Avengers vs. X-Men

[Gary]

Originally posted by Colossus
I was going for mass combat teams, if you want teams of 4 the best is not the FF (in combat at least)- or a JLA composed of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and GL - or an Avengers composed of Thor, Iorn Man, Cap and whoever.

It's the Defendser - the line-up as of issue 1 Silver Surfer, Namor, Hulk and Dr. Strange - any team where Namor is the weakest member gets my vote.

I don't know. The Legion of Superheroes would be extremely tough.

Superboy
Mon-El
Element Lad
Your pick of Karate Kid, Wildfire, Sensor Girl, Cosmic Boy, Timberwolf, or Braniac 5

[Balok]

Ordinarily, I'd say the JLA beats *both* the Avengers and the X-Men without much effort. But under the right circumstances, things don't go well for thr JLA.

For one example: Scarlet Witch vs. Superman -- she can strip him of his powers by making them improbable. Then, a simple magic blast sends him off to lala land (or to Boot Hill, if we're playing it that way).

Of course, if Batman has a chance to prepare, he can easily defeat the Avengers and the X-Men *by himself*. Hell, his plan, implemented by Ra's Al Ghul, took down the rest of the JLA during Morrison's tenure. Plus, Batman is nastier than anyone on any of those teams possibly excepting Wolverine. He just doesn't fight fair.

Thor's hammer is a magic weapon. Superman's in a world of hurt if Thor can tag him. Plus, Thor could conceivably send Supes (or anyone else) to some other dimension.

Flash gives the Avengers *all kinds* of problems -- they just don't have a speedster even close to his abilities. The Avengers *might* defeat him by using a vibranium dust grenade -- the metal would absorb his vibrational energy, and depower him for the few crucial seconds it would take to clobber him.

Basically, it all depends on who is given the better tactics, how much advance warning they have, what they know about their opponents, and how serious the contest is (i.e. how many stops are pulled out). In other words, it depends on who's writing the story.

[Starcorp Man]

Originally posted by Morningstar70
I suppose since they allow Wolverine to cut the Hulk bad enough that he was sloshing guts all over the place, he might cause superficial bleeding on the Man of Steel.

Then Superman evaluates the metal with his X-Ray vision, and makes Logan's day truly suck by switching to heat vision and raising Logan's body temperature by 200 degrees by superheating the Adamantium. Enough to cause severe burns that his accelerated healing factor will be busy with, but not enough to cause serious damage.

Or, he could just punch Wolverine harder and harder until he dents and bends the mutant's skeleton.

Or huck him into space.

[Super Squirrel]

The problem between X-Men vs. JLA has been summed up well already in a couple of posts. Just like you can pick Silver Age vs. Modern Day Superman you can also pick X-Men from any 'phase' and have a totally different power level.

My view is that if you found the proper point levels, the JLA is going to <u>likely</u> win. Now I say likely only because it is not a sure bet. The problem for the JLA is dealing with Rogue. In a one on one bout, the only one who stands a chance against her is the Green Lantern because his power comes from outside him and it gives him a cosmic level power that can't be absorbed.

This, however, is a team vs. team event. There are some clear members of the JLA that aren't on a level that can take on X-Men and there are those that are unstoppable. Batman is a very powerful superhero but he is one of the ones that can be taken down easily by the X-Men.

Really though, it gets down to the style of Marvel and DC. DC runs cosmically powerful heroes that are meant to be supernatural and well beyond humans. Marvel runs heroes that are powerful beyond humans but with clear ties to their human side. So, I admit that JLA will beat the X-Men but it is only because JLA runs them at that power scale.

[Balok]

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
The problem for the JLA is dealing with Rogue. In a one on one bout, the only one who stands a chance against her is the Green Lantern because his power comes from outside him and it gives him a cosmic level power that can't be absorbed.

Rogue's big weakness is that she must touch her target to absorb his power. That means anyone with a ranged attack of suffiicient power can deal with her easily. That would include Superman, Green Lantern, Firestorm, Major Disaster, and a number of others I'm probably forgetting.

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
Batman is a very powerful superhero but he is one of the ones that can be taken down easily by the X-Men.

Taken down? Probably. Easily? No. First of all, Batman is much smarter than any of the X-Men with the possible exception of Xavier himself. Secondly, his tactical skill is far better. He wouldn't engage them in open combat if he was going alone -- he'd study them, determine their weakness, and use the resources he can access through his company and his contacts to build what he needs to take them down.

Originally posted by Super Squirrel
DC runs cosmically powerful heroes that are meant to be supernatural and well beyond humans. Marvel runs heroes that are powerful beyond humans but with clear ties to their human side. So, I admit that JLA will beat the X-Men but it is only because JLA runs them at that power scale.

True enough. Many Marvel heroes tend to be one trick ponies; this is certainly true of many X-Men. Whereas the JLA has folks whose powers inspire the Multipower and EC frameworks.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Balok
Ordinarily, I'd say the JLA beats *both* the Avengers and the X-Men without much effort. But under the right circumstances, things don't go well for thr JLA.

For one example: Scarlet Witch vs. Superman -- she can strip him of his powers by making them improbable. Then, a simple magic blast sends him off to lala land (or to Boot Hill, if we're playing it that way).

Of course, if Batman has a chance to prepare, he can easily defeat the Avengers and the X-Men *by himself*. Hell, his plan, implemented by Ra's Al Ghul, took down the rest of the JLA during Morrison's tenure. Plus, Batman is nastier than anyone on any of those teams possibly excepting Wolverine. He just doesn't fight fair.

Thor's hammer is a magic weapon. Superman's in a world of hurt if Thor can tag him. Plus, Thor could conceivably send Supes (or anyone else) to some other dimension.

Flash gives the Avengers *all kinds* of problems -- they just don't have a speedster even close to his abilities. The Avengers *might* defeat him by using a vibranium dust grenade -- the metal would absorb his vibrational energy, and depower him for the few crucial seconds it would take to clobber him.

I'm not sure about all of these.

I've heard this "Batman doesn't fight fair" stuff before, but I haven't ever seen it happen. Oh sure, he uses dirty tricks, but I think it's more reputation than anything else. At the end of the day, I haven't seen Batman ever do something on par with the kind of crap kindly old Professor X does. Batman doesn't rewrite people's memories when it suits him. Too many people on this board worship at the alter of the Bat-god. He may be mean, but so is a schoolyard bully. It doesn't mean much when he can't take advantage of the "my power doesn't work against blah blah" limitation that most DC powerhouses have.

By the way, that "Batman vs the JLA" crap was about as stupid as the "Punisher kills the Marvel Universe". I wish people would stop referencing it (if Batman was so great, why does he still have problems with Gotham criminals?).

The Flash is the fastest speedster around, but you've got to remember two things. One, the Avengers have dealt with speedsters before. Two, superspeed ain't as cool as many people think. If it was that cool, Flash wouldn't be background filler in the JLA. He'd single-handedly beat down their villains. Also, remember that Quicksilver is faster than Marvel claims. He's done (recently, too) intercontinental journeys in a matter of a minute or so. While not Flash-level speed, that puts him in the realm of Jessie Quick or Max Mercury. Wally beats him, but it's not a slaughter.

I think the JLA and the Avengers are a relatively even match (it really depends on which rosters we use). The big guns in the JLA have their equals in members of the Avengers. Most X-Men incarnations however, are outclassed.

The team that I wouldn't want to fight right now is the new Justice Society. Power Girl, Dr Fate, Captain Marvel, Black Adam, the original Green Lantern and the original Flash, Johnny Thunder and the Thunderbolt... ick.

[Gary]

I honestly don't think there are any teams that can deal with a full strength Legion of Superheroes. They were extremely powerful, and there were lots of them. They may possibly be powerful enough to beat the Justice League, Avengers, and X-Men combined.

[Balok]

The only way to resolve this for certain would be to specify things more clearly than has happened so far ... what the team rosters, how much and what each team knows about the other, who gets the drop, what level of power each character has (Quicksilver has ranged from "has to work to break the sound barrier" on up to "second tier DC speedster", for example.)

And even then, there would be room for disagreement.

P.S. to Champsguy: I used Batman vs. the JLA because it's canon. You may think it's stupid, and I happen to think it's improbable at the very least -- but it's canon. It got past DC editorial. We can disagree with it to our heart's content, but it's part of the mythos now.

If anything, this merely serves to emphasize the one unbreakable rule of these contests: the outcome depends on the writer and what he needs for his story.

A friend of mine once said the JLA would only need one character to beat the entire JLA -- Firestorm. He turns Iron Man into Plutonium Man, and the resulting explosion takes out the rest of the team.

[jeep_the_great]

First of all lets get to the point of the matter. All cross-overs are subject to interpentation. So lets just have some fun here.

In the battle of the JLA vs. the Avengers, I Fell that it would go like this:

Superman and Thor would pair off and size each other up at the start.

She-Hulk goes after Wonder Woman and begins to try to use here STR to her advantage. Not knowing that
Wonder Woman is her equal in STR, and unaware that she is able to parry all the blows that the green skinned wonder can throw. Also all the blows that Wonder Woman lands on She-Hulk is absorbed by her natural body armour. This ends up just being a parry vs. knockback battle, destroying near 7 city blocks in the process.

The Martian Manhunter and the Vision takes turn trying to hit each other, all the time missing because one or the other goes desolid at the last minute. Martian Manhunter trys to use his mental powers but cant because the Vision is a machine.

Batman and Captain America will go toe-to-toe, all the time trying to figure out what the weakness of the other is.

Flash and Quicksilver take off running at superspeed and with both wanting to prove that he is the fastest, we never see them again (except in passing).

Firestorm goes after Iron Man, and Iron Man hits him with several good hits. This gets the better of Firestorm and just before he goes down for the count, he turns Iron Man's suit into a giant paperwieght. Both men are down for the count.

Here comes the Flash and Quicksilver.

Superman and Thor go at it and Superman gets tired of being hit by Thor's hammer. Superman uses his superspeed and puts some distance between him and Thor. Thor sees this as a sign of weakness nad throws his mighty hammer at Superman. Superman surprises Thor by catching the hammer and holding it, preventing it from returning to Thor. As only a person of great virtue can pick up let alone hold the mighty hammer, Thor quicky comes to the conclusion that this battle was caused by some evil force of great power. He approached Superman in peace and they begin to talk.

Look out for the Flash and Quicksilver

Batman and Captain America having come to the same conclusion 10 minutes eariler wonder what took them so long.

Superman goes to calm down Wonder Woman while Thor does the same for She-Hulk. Vision and the Martain Manhunter stop trying to hurt each other and also begin to talk.

Both teams revive their fallen members and Firestorm returns Iron Man suits back to working condition.

Flash and Quicksilver just passed by. Did anybody see them?

All the remaining menbers talk it over and realize theat this whole battle must have been cause by none other than........

Loki and Lex Luther. So begins another cross-over as our favorite heroes go after a couple of villians.

There goes the 2 speedsters again.............

[lemming]

Sam Bell ran a couple of these for Slugathon years ago. He also made some flyers:

<img src="http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=17601">

For those having problems reading the words:

• The Official Game of Marvel vs DC
  Not a hoax, Not a dream, Not an imaginary story, It's a Champions Game!
  #1 Mar 87
  250 pts
  750 in Boston
  Recommended for mature Players
  @ Slugathon II
  With Batman saying "Maybe this wasn't such a good idea!"

[lemming]

And #2:

<img src="http://www.herogames.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=17602">

And those hard to read words:

• World's Greatest Champions Game!
  GM: Jason Abbot
  Special Guest GM: Sam Bell
  slugathon II
  Be there or be Independant!
  This time it's Wolverine saying "Maybe this wasn't such a good idea!"

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by jeep_the_great
First of all lets get to the point of the matter. All cross-overs are subject to interpentation. So lets just have some fun here.

In the battle of the JLA vs. the Avengers, I Fell that it would go like this:

{...snip...}

All the remaining menbers talk it over and realize theat this whole battle must have been cause by none other than........

Loki and Lex Luther. So begins another cross-over as our favorite heroes go after a couple of villians.

Great stuff, and sadly, though humorous, also captures the spirit of every single superhero(s) encounter new superhero(s) battle ever. Cant damage that valuable money making intellectual property, afterall.

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by Gary
I honestly don't think there are any teams that can deal with a full strength Legion of Superheroes.

How about the Golden Age JSA, with the Spectre? As we saw in Crisis on Infinite Earths, when he battled the Anti-Monitor, the Spectre is DC's most powerful superhero.

[jeep_the_great]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike
Great stuff, and sadly, though humorous, also captures the spirit of every single superhero(s) encounter new superhero(s) battle ever. Cant damage that valuable money making intellectual property, afterall.

Thank you for getting the message that was so plain to see, "can't damage that valuable money making intellectual property". It's fun to do these things but after all, this is the stuff that sells comics when the numbers start to drop.

[Champsguy]

Originally posted by Balok
P.S. to Champsguy: I used Batman vs. the JLA because it's canon. You may think it's stupid, and I happen to think it's improbable at the very least -- but it's canon. It got past DC editorial. We can disagree with it to our heart's content, but it's part of the mythos now.

Yes, and no.

DC's history is about as permanent as a hair removal treatment on Aglar's back. It changes like the wind. The whole point of Hypertime was that they wouldn't have to stick to stuff that had already been written.

I can point out that Batman has also previously stated that he's (by far) the weakest member of the team. "I don't have superspeed or invulnerability to save me. I don't wear a brightly colored costume, Superman, and can't afford to run around with poorly-trained people who do."

How much canon should we count? What about when Hercules towed the island of Manhattan back into place? What about when a satellite was falling to Earth, and Superman had great trouble keeping it from falling to the ground, because it weighed "nearly seventy tons". What about Martian Manhunter's ever-changing vulnerability to flame? Sometimes it takes away his powers. Sometimes it acts as a x1.5 vulnerability, sometimes he's just scared of it. Don't even get into the mess that is Hawkman's background (you'll have to ask someone else to explain that one to you--it's far too confusing for me to even start to try to comprehend).

If you want to see the most dangerous member of the JLA, look at Aquaman. He's trounced half the team, casually, at one point or another.
1. He fried a martian's brain with his telepathic powers, giving the poor alien a seizure.
2. He stuck his hand up out of the ocean when Flash was running across the water, tripping the speedster and sending him tumbling into the drink.
3. He stole Green Lantern's ring by firing his hook-hand and stripping it off of his finger.

Besides, in that "Batman vs the JLA" storyline, what it really showed us is that Bruce is dumb as a rock. All you need to do is say "Hey, Bats, right now Hawkeye is taking a big dump on your mom's grave", and he'll go running off, abandoning all else, to save his mommy.