I know it's been done before, but ...JLA vs. Avengers vs. X-Men

[Colossus]

When we were kids there was that wonderful fight, which many of us still go through who would win between Thor and Superman; The Avengers and the JLA; the Teen Titans and the X-Men (X-Men hands down). Before the board crashed I was trying to see how people though this could be modeled in the Champions System, fair fights between super teams.

Here is my suggestion. Take 10,000 points and each character can get credit for up too 150 points in Disads. There is no max or min number of characters you can have, spend as many points per person as you want!
I just think this is a fun exercise.

Here are my teams, what would you do?

JLA

Superman: 1,000 (+150): 1,150
Wonder Woman: 750 (+150): 900
Martian Manhunter: 750 (+150): 900
Green Lantern, current: 750(+150): 900
Batman: 750 (+150): 900
Flash, current: 750 (+150): 900
Zalanta 650 (+150): 800
Red Tornodo 500 (+150): 650
Aquaman: 500 (+150): 650
Atom 500 (+150): 650
Firestorm: 500 (+150): 650
Plastic Man 300 (+150):450
Black Canary 300 (+150): 450
Green Arrow, orginal 300 (+150): 450
Hawkman: 300 (+150): 450
Hawkgirl: 300 (+150): 450
Fire 300 (+150): 450
Ice 300 (+150):450
Booster Gold: 300 (+150): 450
Blue Beetle: 200 (+150): 350


AVENGERS

Thor 1,000 (+150): 1,150
Iorn Man 750 (+150): 900
Captain Marvel/Photon 750 (+150): 900
Quasar 750 (+150): 900
Scarlet Witch 600 (+150): 750
Hercules 600 (+150): 750
Moondragon 600 (+150): 750
Captain America 500 (+150): 650
Vision 500 (+150): 650
Wonder Man 500 (+150): 650
Quicksilver: 400 (+150): 550
Warbird 400 (+150): 550
She-Hulk 400 (+150) 550
Wasp 300 (+150): 450
Hank Pym 300 (+150): 450
Hawkeye 300 (+150): 450
Black Panther 300 (+150): 450
Black Widow 300 (+150): 450
Starfox 300 (+150): 450
Firestar 250 (+150): 400
Justice 200 (+150): 350


X-MEN

Jean Grey 750 (+150): 900
Rogue 750 (+150): 900
Joseph 750 (+150): 900
Storm 600 (+150): 750
Professor X 500 (+150): 650
Iceman 500 (+150): 650
Wolverine 500 (+150): 650
Psylocke 500 (+150): 650
Nightcrawler 500 (+150): 650
Colossus 500 (+150): 650
Banshee 400 (+150): 550
Dazzler 400 (+150): 550
Bishop 400 (+150) 550
Canonball 400 (+150): 550
Cyclops 400 (+150): 550
Beast 400 (+150): 550
Archangel 300 (+150): 450
Havok 300 (+150): 450
Shadowcat 300 (+150): 450
Longshot 300 (+150): 450
Gambit 300 (+150): 450
Jubliee 250 (+150): 400

[Gargoyle]

Avengers vs JLA would really be a battle between the "big ones" like Thor, Iron Man, Hercules and Vision vs Superman, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern.

Maybe I forgot someone.

If all these characters do an all-out fight. no holding back... the rest of the teammembers on each side should die quickly by the side-effects of the main battle.

[Gargoyle]

And X-men isn't in the same ballgame.... except for Dark Phoenix and maybe Professor X.

[Nucleon]

Yeah, this is fun.

Making up those established characters is a volatile thing, and tends to change according to the writers. I would do two version of each, one fast and rough-edge for use with a team, and the other one more min-maxed and detailed, for solo use.

I think you guys are giving too much points to some of these. Hawkman at 450? A little exessive IMO. Time to flex mine.

JLA
Superman; 700-900 pts, a STR of 90, SPD 6, dex 27, def 45.
Martian Manhunter; I don't know. He is a Superman with all powers. Regular martian stock, you know. 700-900 pts too.
Wonder Woman; 500-650 pts for the Greek but America-loving amazon.
Batman; 500-650 pts too, much in skills, gear and Find Weaknesses.
Aquaman; 450-600 pts.
Green Lantern; 450-600 pts, a huge variable pool with 0 END cost.
The Flash; 500-650 pts for the speedster to end all speedsters.

Avenger
Thor; 650-850 pts whitout Odinforce, STR 70, dex 18, a hammerfull of tricks.
Iron Man; 550-700 pts.
Cap America; 400-500 pts for the Icon, much of it in skills and CSLs.
The Wasp; 300-400 pts for this eternal underdog.
Scarlet Witch; 350-450 pts.
Hawkeye; No Avengers whitout this fave! 350-450 pts, a multipower.
Hank Pym, in whatever incarnation; 350-450 pts

X-Men
Prof Xavier; 350-450 pts
Marvel Girl (Jean Grey); 300-400 pts
Cyclops; 300-400 pts too
Iceman; 300-400 pts
Wolverine; 350-450 pts. I think this guy is overrated.
Rogue; My gawd. certainly 500-700 pts as designed. I don't like this concept.
Storm; 400-600 pts

Fantastic Four. I love this somewhat lackluster team.
Mr Fantastic; 450-600 pts, a great Variable pool, many Analyze skills.
The Thing; 450-600 pts typical brick
The Human Torch II; 450-600 pts too.
The Invisible Girl; Give this underated chick 450-600 pts too.

Now who wins?

JLA are the most powerful by far, their character ending up as the quintessence of their respective fields. However the Avengers are better-led and more polyvalent. The X-men are too, but does not seem enough disciplined to hold their own in this. The Avenger should win, with a little twist of plot. But if these teams were cut down to 4 members, they should all wield before the very synergic Fan-4. How can you lose with Reed Richards on your side?

[Gargoyle]

The way I figure, Flash and Green Lantern are around 1000 points too, not just Superman and the Marsian dude.

X-men or Fantastic Four would have trouble fighting ONE of those JLA members IMO.

[Stephen_H-G]

No kidding. What good are claws and healing really fast when your oppopnent can shoot lasers out of his eyes, fly and drop building on you? Or when he can drop buildings on you, change shape or walk through walls? Or imprison you in a green bubble and send you out in space until you suffocate?

I think the X-Men still have a 50-50 shot just because the writers gets to choose who wins, but doing a good write-up in Hero and then sending them against each other would result in a JLA win.

[SuperPheemy]

If the X-Men are written as acting like a team, they stand a chance. However, if the writing gets sloppy and everyone simply "pairs off" to slug it out, they're doomed.

It also depends on which "classic" X-Men team we're talking about. The lineup of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, and Angel is a whole helluva lot weaker than Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, Wolverine, Storm, Bishop, Rogue, Gambit, and "Joseph" (Magneto). I'd say the latter lineup is pretty well matched against the Avengers or the JLA.

Heck, each INDIVIDUAL X-Man goes through vast increases and decreases in power. Wolverine with an adamantium skeleton is much different than Wolverine without. Iceman has gone from a snowman who tosses snowballs at Magneto to one of the more versitile characters on the roster.

Currently even Juggernaut is part of the roster, and the good Prof can walk on his own power. Which brings up a further question, hasn't Juggernaut and Thor gone at it a few times in the past? Anyone know how those bouts went?

[SuperPheemy]

As to the question about claws being effective, Wolverine with the Adamantium skeleton would be quite capable of cutting open the Man of Steel. Furthermore, Superman habitually holds back when fighting an unknown opponent, often letting the other guy throw the first blow.

I think that Superman would beat Wolverine in the end, because the claws and healing factor just can't stand up to all of Supes' advantages. But I see Wolverine taking the early initiative and suprising Big Blue with what he's capable of.

Visually, it would be a very cool fight. Wolverine carving big gashes in Superman's torso, Supes throwing that big punch and watching Woverine's jaw relocate even as they fight. Superman slowly taking the kid gloves further off as the fight continues, finally punching Wolverine hard enough to send the Canucklehead through buildings. Carnage abounding!

[Gargoyle]

Originally posted by SuperPheemy
It also depends on which "classic" X-Men team we're talking about. The lineup of Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, and Angel is a whole helluva lot weaker than Cyclops, Jean Grey, Beast, Iceman, Wolverine, Storm, Bishop, Rogue, Gambit, and "Joseph" (Magneto). I'd say the latter lineup is pretty well matched against the Avengers or the JLA.

I'd say they couldn't even scratch superman. The dude can fly around the world under 1 sec (try to hit that target) and do a laservision sweep to vaporize not only the X-men, but the whole area around them without breaking sweat.
End of battle.

Avengers and FF would face the same destiny.

[Hermit]

Originally posted by Nucleon
Now who wins?

JLA are the most powerful by far, their character ending up as the quintessence of their respective fields. However the Avengers are better-led and more polyvalent. The X-men are too, but does not seem enough disciplined to hold their own in this. The Avenger should win, with a little twist of plot. But if these teams were cut down to 4 members, they should all wield before the very synergic Fan-4. How can you lose with Reed Richards on your side?

I have to agree with the 'JLA more powerful' 'Avengers better-led' statements. Somedays I SWEAR Captain America has combat skill levels usable by others...

And yeah, the FF is often under rated, but the Foursome I remember was down right formidible. Reed would look at the JLA, run calculations through his head , and deduce the nature and weaknesses of his opponents faster than you could say "Holy Deux Ex Machina!"

"Johny, attune your flames to the red scale, they should help negate that faux human fellow's invulnerability."
And if Marvel was writing this, that would work...

[Killer Shrike]

I shot you!

No your didnt, you missed!

My intergallactic ray-gun never misses!

Oh yeah, well my pan-cosmic forcefield deflects all blows!!!!



Etc etc etc


We are talking about fictional comic book characters. All comic book characters have a secret un-referenced attribute which is more important than all others. This attribute is "cool factor". Cool factor is a direct indicator of how well appreciated the character is by fans willing to shell out dollars to read completely contrived mini-stories about them.

Thus, in any real no-holds barred non-partisan 'fight' which would have to result in a clear winner and a clear loser (no Secret Wars bs here), the winners could be directly traced to which ever intellectual properties were expected to gross more in coming years, regardless of background, capabilities, or relative power levels.

Superman and Batman continue to be big grossers via liscencing to other media, so they'll survive; anything with Wolvie sells, so be sure he's gonna make it. Thor & Iron Man carry thier own books so they will survive. Professor X, Magneto by whatever name, and any other X-Man that is a) in the first movie and b) expected to be popular in the second movie will make it thru, etc. The lesser knowns are all Red-Shirts and will fall to better known/more profitable characters. Welcome to Intellectual Property land, where the bigger earners get all the bennys.

[SuperPheemy]

Well, that's just cynical. Very true, but cynical.

Speculation is kinda fun after all. Making allowances for competative possibility (which is what the point totals at the beginning of this thread were designed to do I believe).

[Colossus]

I was going for mass combat teams, if you want teams of 4 the best is not the FF (in combat at least)- or a JLA composed of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and GL - or an Avengers composed of Thor, Iorn Man, Cap and whoever.

It's the Defendser - the line-up as of issue 1 Silver Surfer, Namor, Hulk and Dr. Strange - any team where Namor is the weakest member gets my vote.

[Enforcer84]

I once had visions of running a hero free for all built like the NCAA basketball braacket. Any number of teams each built on the same total points but fluctuation can occur on individual members. Then see how they would do. Of course this requires writing (and in many cases re-writing) hundreds of heroes and then having them battle. taking alot of time. But at the time I was thinking of it there were a lot of teams out there and some interesting matchups would occur

Avengers
Thunderbolts
Authority
Squadron Supreme
JLA
JSA
X-Men
Defenders
Legion of Superheroes
System 7 (defunct comic property)
Wildcats
Youngblood
Stormwatch
Fantastic Force (ie a number of the characters who have been a member of the FF; I felt it wrong to hold them to four characters)
New Warriors
Titans
Young Justice
can't think of any more at the moment. The only thing is there is some wild variation of power levels here.

[Nucleon]

Originally posted by Colossus
I was going for mass combat teams, if you want teams of 4 the best is not the FF (in combat at least)- or a JLA composed of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman and GL - or an Avengers composed of Thor, Iorn Man, Cap and whoever.

It's the Defendser - the line-up as of issue 1 Silver Surfer, Namor, Hulk and Dr. Strange - any team where Namor is the weakest member gets my vote.

Ook ook. Those Defenders. The JLA's power level, plus the Avengers' polyvalence. Why do people ever forget about them.

But hey, they would still lose to the Fan-4, IMHO. Such strongheaded individualists could hardly hope to beat the synergitic block that is the FF. And then there's Mr. Fantastic Deus Ex Machina.