Giant robots! Another meme too cool for its own good.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Over at Rocketpunk Manifesto, the topic of the week is surface warfare. (As opposed to space warfare.) It's a substantial post with an even more substantial comment thread (450 and counting.)

The general principle of future surface war, it seems to me, is that if you are caught out in the open you are headed for the celestial choir. This goes for guerillas, it goes for power armor troops, it goes for laser armed tanks, trimaran cruisers, aircraft, and spacecraft in low orbit. Give precision weapons a clear target and they will take it out.

Thirty meter mecha, sad to say, make for very clear targets.

OUCH!!! Here's a nice video demonstration of precision weaponry catching targets out in the open:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7NEjEMnlRM

[Lord Liaden]

I assume since you posted this here, you want to start your own version of this discussion?

It strikes me that one advantage humanform mecha would have over traditional armored vehicles, is agility. A machine that can move with coordination and reflex speed close to its human operator -- or potentially, even moreso -- will be able to avoid many types of otherwise precisely targeted weapons, provided the operator is aware of the threat. I'm put in mind of the scene from the first Iron Man film, when IM dodges a tank cannon shell by simply stepping out of its direct path; or District 9, in which the mecha plucks a SAM out of the air in mid-flight.

One also has to consider the potential improvements to defenses that would go hand in hand with the technology needed to build humanoid robotic "suits": improvements to armor, physical or electronic countermeasures to targeting systems, and the like. More sophisticated and powerful missiles have not eliminated the combat use of tanks, aircraft, or naval vessels; they've become more sophisticated themselves in their defense.

[BobGreenwade]

Response speed may or may not be an advantage of mecha; it depends on how quickly a mech's limbs can move. If the mechanics of the limb's movement don't move quickly, then all the human speed in the world won't make an inch of difference.

That said, I can think of three real practical reasons for humanform mecha.

First: traversing awkward terrain. Wheels and tracks need fairly smooth ground to go over, while legs can traverse nearly anything. A wall, a fallen tree, or even a small building is something that a tank has to go around, but a mech can go over.

Second: vantage point. There are several reasons that getting to a physically higher point is an advantage in a fight, and I don't claim to understand all or even most of them, but among them are range of vision and ability to assess surroundings. (Biologists believe that this is why primates in general, and humans even more than the others, developed upright posture.)

Third: interface. In a society where technology is such that machines can be directed by thought -- and we're in the beginning phases of developing just such technology today -- the human form is just more familiar, and thus easier to learn.

[megaplayboy]

I never really grok this implied hostility to mecha as a viable sci fi military vehicle/weapons platform. First, mecha can carry all the defensive features that an advanced tracked AFV could--stealth systems(active and passive), ECM, reactive armor and whatever kind of area denial or area defense systems might be cooked up. So a precision guided weapon system would need to be very powerful, fast, electronically sophisticated, and rugged to withstand all the obstacles a group of walking tanks, even one out in the open, could put in their way. And a large mobile weapons platform might even be capable of targeting the PGM delivery platform as well. A walking vehicle would be able to travel across certain types of terrain much better than a tracked or wheeled vehicle might. Having a higher silhouette does have drawbacks, true, but it also gives one a superior view of the battlefield environment, too. And there's nothing to say that a properly designed mecha might have both bipedal and quadrupedal modes, where it goes on all fours, or even crouches in place, to lower its vertical profile. I just think folks write off mecha a little too quickly. We have no way of knowing whether there will be some new development that muddles up precision guided munitions something fierce.

[Lawnmower Boy]

I used to rage about it all the time back when I was young, but well, I was young.* I think it had something to do with the solipsist implications of the one-person war machine, as opposed to the crew-served tank. And also the rationalisations smacked of the whole, everybody who ever lived was stupid, until me. Though why that should have bothered me in my 20s, I cannot guess.


*Grow up, stand up straight, shave that stupid facial hair, get a job and do your homework, you horrible, wet little git! Don't make me get a time machine and come back there!
There. I feel better now.

[Escafarc]

[Xavier Onassiss]

UAV's can provide a better vantage point, from a stealthier, cheaper platform than giant mecha. As a rationale for building upright walking war machines, this doesn't work.

The all-terrain capability is a better argument, although a low-crawling multi-legged chassis in the same weight-class would work just as well with less exposure and more survivability.

As for the interface, we're back to 'rule of cool' there. Any type of vehicle can be difficult to handle or easier to handle, depending on how well it's designed.

[megaplayboy]

Well, technically, a mecha could also be a humanoid torso atop a tracked chassis, with "arms" holding modular weapon systems and doing other useful stuff.

[feralucce]

Response speed may or may not be an advantage of mecha; it depends on how quickly a mech's limbs can move. If the mechanics of the limb's movement don't move quickly, then all the human speed in the world won't make an inch of difference.

You are forgetting the 5th law of anime phsysics.

Law #5

Law of Mechanical Mobility, Second Law of Anime Motion - The larger a mechanical device is, the faster it moves. Armored Mecha are the fastest objects known to human science.

[Ice9]

Power suits and mid-size mechs seem like they could definitely be viable in the right circumstances. What I'm not so sure about is the giant (several story tall) mecha that stomp around like Godzilla. Something that big, even if it can move relatively fast, is going to be a pretty easy target, and loses many of the manuevering advantages smaller mechs have over conventional vehicles.

Also, if that robot battle show is any indication, the most effective mecha will be a ramp-shaped ground vehicle that drives under the other mechs feet and makes them fall over.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Power suits and mid-size mechs seem like they could definitely be viable in the right circumstances. What I'm not so sure about is the giant (several story tall) mecha that stomp around like Godzilla. Something that big, even if it can move relatively fast, is going to be a pretty easy target, and loses many of the manuevering advantages smaller mechs have over conventional vehicles.

Also, if that robot battle show is any indication, the most effective mecha will be a ramp-shaped ground vehicle that drives under the other mechs feet and makes them fall over.

That show was awesome.

In all seriousness, the low-profile vehicle has a number of advantages: harder to knock over, harder to target, harder to penetrate (sloped armor for the win), easier to conceal, more aerodynamic... I could go on and on and on here, but nothing seems to trump the ultimate of all Ultimate Trump Cards:

The Mecha wins 'cuz it's COOLER!!!

I, of course, remain the sworn enemy of all that is cool....

[megaplayboy]

But the vaguely-human shaped vehicle with arms can carry a big shield and move it around!
More seriously, there is one sense in which a lower-sitting vehicle has a bit of a disadvantage...range of kinetic-kill weapons. If you fire the same gun from 8m up, the shells tend to travel further before falling to ground than when fired from 2m up.

[Lawnmower Boy]

And the 2 metre-tall thing can hide behind way more stuff.

[Xavier Onassiss]

But the vaguely-human shaped vehicle with arms can carry a big shield and move it around!
More seriously, there is one sense in which a lower-sitting vehicle has a bit of a disadvantage...range of kinetic-kill weapons. If you fire the same gun from 8m up, the shells tend to travel further before falling to ground than when fired from 2m up.

Yes, the military value of high ground has been well-documented, going back at least as far as Sun-Tzu. But building 8m (or more!) of high ground into the vehicle seems a bit extreme....

[Lord Liaden]

If coolness was a deciding factor in military policy, they'd be using a lot more jet packs.