Why is Speed so unpopular?

[Greywind]

Technically, by definition, playing superheroes is POWER gaming.

[randian]

Technically, by definition, playing superheroes is POWER gaming.

Also, I see quite a few people conflate "abusive" with "high power".

[lemming]

Also, I see quite a few people conflate "abusive" with "high power".

Very true. You can run a game with speeds in the high end and dice thundering across the table, you just have to have everyone in the same range. Or at least in the same range for the story. One of my favorite campaigns of Sam's was a space game where we did have the likes of Superboy & Duplicate Lass running about.

[Shiva13]

Technically, by definition, playing superheroes is POWER gaming.

Powergaming refers to a style of negative player behaviour that is commonly known in the gaming community. And definitely well known in the Hero System community. It describes the behaviour of those who are out to exploit the game system, the campaign, and the trust of the GM. Rather than actually making a legitimate character at all.

They are also one of the big reasons I have spent enough money on Rolaids, that I should be a stockholder in the company that makes that product.

The superheroic power level is a benchmark. A campaign style. Not an excuse to abuse.

[Shiva13]

Very true. You can run a game with speeds in the high end and dice thundering across the table, you just have to have everyone in the same range. Or at least in the same range for the story. One of my favorite campaigns of Sam's was a space game where we did have the likes of Superboy & Duplicate Lass running about.

Regulation of SPD is part of the overall picture. It helps the game run smoothly. That's really the entire purpose of doing so.

My preference is to keep SPD scores low and manageable. It frees up character points for players to further flesh out their characters in other directions. It helps give the characters a little more depth.

[Greywind]

If you're stressing over a hobby, you either need to change your dance partners or just take a break in general.

I'm fully aware of the connotations of power gaming. Considering, even on these forums, people can post up characters and some will say "Cool! Neat build!" and others will say "I'd never allow that!", apparently "abusive" is in the eyes of a person that doesn't want to have to deal with such a character.

[Shiva13]

If you're stressing over a hobby, you either need to change your dance partners or just take a break in general.

Currently not stressing over the hobby. I just have a history of dealing with the hobby's pitfalls. Especially when it comes to the Hero System and Champions in particular. I'm experienced enough to know that a system like the Hero System needs a firm hand to guide its use. And without that firm hand, well the consequences to the campaign being played and to the GM's stress levels can be quite serious. I've delt with that.

Back when I was running a campaign seriously, when I was early in my experience as a GM, I had to deal with a player who would derail and delay an entire game session for the entire game group just to discuss hi8s latest exploit of the system, and to try and get a ruling from the GM at hand on it. Even though it had absolutely NOTHING to do with the campaign being played. The player was such a behaviour problem that he rarely lasted a month in any game group in which he played. It was clear that he didn't really care about the campaign at all, or the fun of anyone else. He was a selfish jerk.

I game to have fun. I don't game to deal with behaviour problems.

[Greywind]

Fastest, easiest way I ever dealt with the issue was I told the players "I don't care what you build, or how you build it. Just keep in mind that whatever you do, at some point in time, you will have to deal with it from the other side. So if you and your team can't handle what you have in mind, don't build it."

[Hyper-Man]

It sounds like you are linking one player's bad behavior to a particular system. No linkage may exist. The player in question is just as likely to exhibit similar behavior with any other system of choice (if he had never encountered HERO).

[lemming]

Regulation of SPD is part of the overall picture. It helps the game run smoothly. That's really the entire purpose of doing so.

My preference is to keep SPD scores low and manageable. It frees up character points for players to further flesh out their characters in other directions. It helps give the characters a little more depth.

And you seem to stress out too much over numbers instead of going with the story which I point out is the important part.

You got scarred by some players long ago since I remember quite well you've had this rant for a long time. (You were on the champ-l email list weren't you?)

[Shiva13]

Yes, I was on that list.

I have since learned to appreciate the need for simplicity.

Controlling SPD simplifies combat dramatically.

[Vondy]

Regulation of SPD is part of the overall picture.

This is true of Hero as a system. Very few things in it are broken. Almost everything in it requires... regulation.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I've never understood the argument that "SPD is predictable". Nearly all other games are round-based, so characters have exactly the same number of actions as every other, and since initiative is normally done once per combat (redoing it once per round, for example, would be murderous on the speed of your combats) everything is perfectly predictable. If anything, constraining SPD as some advocate would seem to reduce Hero to D&D. Everybody SPD 4? How's that different than round-based combat? If Hero deserves demerits for "predictability", then all games do.

The reason for this perception of predictability is as others have pointed out, because of the lack of random initiative in HERO. All characters act with the same SPD and DEX all the time, unless they abort, hold or act on a lower Dex or SPD (fat chance of that!). Experienced Hero players can easily work out an opponents SPD score by counting which phases they act upon and plan their offensive and defensive tactics around that knowledge. That is harder to do in a system that relies or more randomized initiative.

In game systems with random initiative, there is always an element of doubt. Sure in most, the fast guys usually go first and the slower usually go last, but there is that element of chance where the fast guy can roll poorly and the slow guy can roll well and reverse the order. That situation would never appear in a standard HERO game unless the faster guy purposefully waited to act after the slowest character has gone. When the player with the slowest character rolls the highest initiative during a turn, that makes that player's day.

Indeed, I find the use of the word "predictable" in this context odd. Generally, it is the result of a character's action (hit or miss, damage total) that is random. Though I am sure such an RPG exists, I've never seen one which attempted to randomize character abilities. "For this combat, you have d3+2 SPD". "You have 9+1d6m Running". "Instead of 50 STR, you have 40+1d20 STR (maybe the villians attacked when you were sick)". I'm not convinced of the merits of "unpredictability".

It's actually not that odd. I've played in game systems where initiative could be "botched" or "fumbled" in which case, the character did not get to act that turn. It was a rare occurrence that normally only affected NPC's, but I've seen it hit PC's a couple of times. It simulates sort of being confused or blindsided and not knowing exactly what to do that turn.

Using something like this in HERO wouldn't be at all difficult to implement. Every Post-Segment 12, everyone would roll "initiative" for the turn, which randomly determines their SPD score for that 12 second Turn. I would base the roll on established HERO mechanics, such as making a DEX roll and on a successful roll, the character acts at normal Speed, on a critical success, they act at +1 Speed. However, if they fail their Dex roll, they act at -1 Speed. With a Dex of 10, there is a 62% chance of success, so most times, the character would act at their normal Speed. Variations on this could exist, based on a variety of characteristics, or none at all. (to avoid characteristic inflation)

I have never randomized Speed, but I have randomized initiative within characters action phase. I have made an "Initiative Value" secondary characteristic based on DEX and INT (calculated similar to OCV in 5th and earlier editions) and added to a 1D6 roll to determine order of action in a particular segment. It worked out quite well actually, and I may implement it again in the future.

[Christopher]

My biggest issue with the SPD mechanic is one others have mentioned here: the increment of SPD is much too large at the low end -- and most of my HERO System gaming has been at the low end -- so that SPD differences at the "normal human" level overshadow more or less any other differences between characters of differing SPD. The difference between SPD 2 and SPD 3 is enormous, much larger than the difference between 6 and 7. The low end is where I'd like more granularity to the system.

Yes, the hero system in general lacks granularity in the lower scores/skills. Despite being a Universal game system, the need to accomodate Superheroes will always mean that it either lacks granularity or that supeheroes will need a lot more dices.
The only way aroudn this would be a scale system, like in Star Wars D6 (where 4d6 can be the damage roll for a handblaster or the main laser of the deathstar), but a systems needs to be desinged for that.

Why is "face time" a problem? Players need to keep their ego in check, not whine about "face time".

As it happens, I love bricks. I'm not wasting all those extra phases I might have had on defensive actions, and I know that when I act something is going to happen.

That actually the point in having more SPD. Sure you can act more often, but you also loose Phases more often (to PRE attacks, being Stunned, being K.O. or just defending yourself).

I don't believe powergaming to be acceptable in the least. In character design, I believe the character concept is the prime guide in which a character sheet is constructed.

Yes, I may seem strict here. But I thoroughly believe that is someone's concept doesn't justify them having something, they shouldn't have it. Period.

That would perhaps lead to someone changing his concept to accomodate his design.

Fastest, easiest way I ever dealt with the issue was I told the players "I don't care what you build, or how you build it. Just keep in mind that whatever you do, at some point in time, you will have to deal with it from the other side. So if you and your team can't handle what you have in mind, don't build it."

That what I think too, but the other way around: Unless it's the McGuffin, never allow a NPC to have something you wouldn't allow for the players.

The reason for this perception of predictability is as others have pointed out, because of the lack of random initiative in HERO. All characters act with the same SPD and DEX all the time, unless they abort, hold or act on a lower Dex or SPD (fat chance of that!). Experienced Hero players can easily work out an opponents SPD score by counting which phases they act upon and plan their offensive and defensive tactics around that knowledge. That is harder to do in a system that relies or more randomized initiative.

Personally I don't see a problem with players knowing the SPD of the enemy, if someone is stunned/flashed or K.O., wich SFX what attack has, wich parts of his equipment are Focus and wich not, ...
When you are the GM you know all that stuff yourself. They still should need to suffer an attack before knowign the enemy has it, but otherwise I think "disclosure" helps the players knowign what to do. Comicbook characters always seem to know if a specific attack will hurt them or not and if something is a focus or not.

In game systems with random initiative, there is always an element of doubt. Sure in most, the fast guys usually go first and the slower usually go last, but there is that element of chance where the fast guy can roll poorly and the slow guy can roll well and reverse the order.

APG I 158 has some optional Speed Systems, including "Rolled Speeds" and "Variable Speed".

[Martin2]

As mentioned by others SPD is an important tool in HERO and it can be controlled to make it run smoother.

I had a problem with players complaining that they were not getting enough "Face time". This was because I have PC's on SPD 4 and 5 and a SPD 4 player was complaining. So that was simply controlled by allowing him to up his SPD to 5 with the right EXP or character tweek (the same player was also complaining that the speed 6 super villain was acting to many times as well but thats not going to change )

GM's have full control over the game they run so I think it is best to keep the speeds all relative to the players by keeping all the players and villains at the same SPD if they want.

"Speedsters" don't have to have a much higher SPD then your average hero (I don't have one so is not a problem for my game). They can just have other powers to simulate the ability to do things faster (high movement m, AOE / autofire attacks to simulate hiting lots of people in a short time, skill levels / powers to reduce time effected events to simulate doing things faster etc).

So players who want "high speed" do not have to have a high SPD to keep the game balanced.