Weapon Mastery (Coments Welcomed)

[steriaca]

Well, lets get this started.

Weapon Mastery (YELD!)
Type: Tallent
Cost: 20 points.

Effect: The charater who has this tallent (based loosly on the 'other universals' on page 48-50 of the APG 1) are considered to have all common Weapon Familiarity based on setting, the charater's background, and what Martial Arts and Transport Familiaritys thay posess. Thay basicly have the folowing:

1) All common Weapion Familiaritys, including thoes based on setting. This, in a Dark Champions campain, it would include all Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, and Small Arms. In a Fanacy Hero campain, it would be all Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Uncommon Melee Weapions, and most Uncommon Missile Weapons, for another example.

2) All WF: Vehical Weapons for each TF with a built in weapon common to it. For example, a person with this tallent AND TF: Tank can operate the main cannon easly.

3) All WF for all the Martial Arts thay know. Thay still need the "Use Art With..." for each to use the weapon with the Martial Art.

4) All WF wich fits the charater's background.

What the tallent does not give:

1) WF: Off Hand, unless the Martial Arts comes with it (requiered or not).

2) WF wich would almost never show up in the setting. For example, WF: Beem Weapons in a Fanticy Hero campain.

3) Any which are "forien", "ailen", or "unique" (like anything from Yentanga Temple when your charater is a martial artest who dosen't come from there).

4) WF: Non-Weapon Weapons.

[Lucius]

My comment: Overpriced

Universal Familiarity: +3 OCV (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only to counter non-proficiency penalty (-1/2), Limited Power Limited by setting and background; for instance, character will NOT know martial arts weapons for martial arts the character doesn't have (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Must hold or handle a weapon for one phase to 'get a feel for it'; -1/4) Real Cost: 7

One might argue my build is too cheap, but I think 20 is way too expensive.

WF: Common Martial Arts Melee Weapons, Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Small Arms, Vehicle Weapons Real Cost: 9

Lucius Alexander

Familiarity: Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[steriaca]

My comment: Overpriced

Universal Familiarity: +3 OCV (15 Active Points); Limited Power Only to counter non-proficiency penalty (-1/2), Limited Power Limited by setting and background; for instance, character will now know martial arts weapons for martial arts the character doesn't have (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, Must hold or handle a weapon for one phase to 'get a feel for it'; -1/4) Real Cost: 7

One might argue my build is too cheap, but I think 20 is way too expensive.

WF: Common Martial Arts Melee Weapons, Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Small Arms, Vehicle Weapons Real Cost: 9

Lucius Alexander

Familiarity: Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

Thats what I love about Hero. There are always more than one way to do something. And, yes, I like your way better.

Can you 'power' through the other universals from page 48-50 of APG 1?

[Lucius]

Thats what I love about Hero. There are always more than one way to do something. And, yes, I like your way better.

Can you 'power' through the other universals from page 48-50 of APG 1?

Let me take a look.....

Friends Everywhere: (Total: 29 Active Cost, 7 Real Cost) Summon 55-point creatures, Side Effects (Side Effect always occurs whenever the character does some specific act; If trying a second EGO vs EGO contest, and failing, contact becomes hostile; +0), Expanded Class of Beings (Very Limited Group; All normal people, but exact Skills, Equipment, Connections, etc. can vary; +1/4), Weak-Willed -4 on EGO Rolls (+1/2) (19 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, Variable, may be much shorter or longer according to circumstances; -1), Arrives Under Own Power (-1/2), Summoned Being Must Inhabit Locale (-1/2), Requires A Roll (Skill roll, -1 per 20 Active Points modifier; Jammed, Can choose which of two rolls to make from use to use; -1/2), 8 Charges (No one has an UNLIMITED number of friends they can call in a given day....; -1/2), Limited Power Non Combat (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4)
<b>plus</b>
+10 EGO (10 Active Points); Extra Time (5 Minutes, Only to Activate, Variable, may be much shorter or longer according to circumstances; -1), Limited Power Only to get +1 task and +1 to EGO vs EGO Roll (-1/2), 8 Charges (No one has an UNLIMITED number of friends they can call in a given day....; -1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3)

No more than 8 times per day, the character may call upon a useful friend or acquiantance who happens to have the expertise or connections desired. A Skill roll must be made, usually one of the PRE based skills such as Charm, High Society, Streetwise, or Bureaocratics, depending on the kind of person called upon - High Society to get an introduction to a party for a visiting head of state, Streetwise to set up a black market arms purchase, Bureaucratics to expedite your application for a permit to carry concealed high explosives, etc. The Roll is made at -2 and failing it means the power is "jammed" that is, this contact is unavailable or unhelpful and some time and effort is required to contact someone else or locate or persuade this one (one charge expended to no effect.) Getting help requires an EGO vs EGO roll (-2 for Active Points, +2 for the built in boost, for character; -4 for contact, because they're inclined to be helpful) and the contact will do a number of small favors equal to character's EGO/5 +2. Big favors (costs the contact significant money, puts their job at risk, etc) might use up several or ALL of the favor allotment. Very big favors (risking arrest, scandal, or threats to life or health) may not be possible at all. Trying for more favors risks turning the contact against the character (may report to the authorities, order an investigation, alert an enemy to the character's whereabouts, etc)

suggested +0 Modifier: Although I did not put it in the write up, this power differs from standard Summons in that the summoned entity may not physically appear; the entire transaction could easily be a phone call or even an exchange of letters. Also, "arrives under own power" may mean the character has to arrive under their own power to where the contact is, rather than vice versa. "Must inhabit locale" should be interpreted so that sometimes, the kind of person you need just isn't available.


Again, on the whole my way may be too cheap for the effect; I was surprised at the low price.

Maybe I'll try for some of the others too.

Lucius Alexander

Universal Palindromedary

[Ninja-Bear]

A friend of mine had a character had something like this, and iirc 20 pts was the price he and his GM came up with. The provsion was that if there was any new wf that the character or a supplement introduced, he didn't have to pay it. (Now this was I believe 4th ed and penalty skill levels weren't introduced yet.)

[Christopher]

A friend of mine had a character had something like this, and iirc 20 pts was the price he and his GM came up with. The provsion was that if there was any new wf that the character or a supplement introduced, he didn't have to pay it. (Now this was I believe 4th ed and penalty skill levels weren't introduced yet.)

PSL woudn't affect the "Missing WF" penalty anyway. That is why Lucius built it with plain OCV.

Of course, technically there are a few Limitations to what thsi can do. While most effect of missing a WF is the OCV penalty, there are some minor effects (for example, you can't buy a specific Martial Arts Weapon Elements without having the fitting WF first).

[Ninja-Bear]

PSL woudn't affect the "Missing WF" penalty anyway. That is why Lucius built it with plain OCV.

Of course, technically there are a few Limitations to what thsi can do. While most effect of missing a WF is the OCV penalty, there are some minor effects (for example, you can't buy a specific Martial Arts Weapon Elements without having the fitting WF first).

I don't know if my friend was looking to use the weapon elements or not.. Him and the GM just added up all the WF at the time (if iirc) and came up with 20 pts as being fair.

[Mister E]

APG 1 takes Universal Translator as an example of how all background skills (i.e., PS, KS, SS, TF), & the Contact perk, can be made "universal" by pricing them at 20 character points. I think this is the biggest problem. WF is not a background skill & APG 1 did not address non-background skills (nor, for that matter, perks other than Contact).

I like the 20 point "universal" WF talent. It is elegantly, efficiently & economically priced. Especially if every other such "universal skill/perk" talent likewise costs 20 character points.

It makes me think 20 character points is a good price to make MA maneuvers "universal".

[megaplayboy]

APG 1 takes Universal Translator as an example of how all background skills (i.e., PS, KS, SS, TF), & the Contact perk, can be made "universal" by pricing them at 20 character points. I think this is the biggest problem. WF is not a background skill & APG 1 did not address non-background skills (nor, for that matter, perks other than Contact).

I like the 20 point "universal" WF talent. It is elegantly, efficiently & economically priced. Especially if every other such "universal skill/perk" talent likewise costs 20 character points.

It makes me think 20 character points is a good price to make MA maneuvers "universal".

How would that be implemented--you can perform any maneuver for 20 points? I think that might be a little too inexpensive. I'd probably peg that at 50+ points myself. Theoretically there's hundreds of possible maneuvers, though in practice the "basic" list is about 13 maneuvers(and most styles have fewer than this number) and costs about 52 points to know all of them. Maybe you could do Universal Martial Artist at 40 points(to perform any maneuver up to 5 points), +1 DC per +4 points. In some campaigns it would work just fine(DBZ, e.g.), while in others it would be considered highly inappropriate/overly advantageous.

[Christopher]

How would that be implemented--you can perform any maneuver for 20 points? I think that might be a little too inexpensive. I'd probably peg that at 50+ points myself. Theoretically there's hundreds of possible maneuvers, though in practice the "basic" list is about 13 maneuvers(and most styles have fewer than this number) and costs about 52 points to know all of them. Maybe you could do Universal Martial Artist at 40 points(to perform any maneuver up to 5 points), +1 DC per +4 points. In some campaigns it would work just fine(DBZ, e.g.), while in others it would be considered highly inappropriate/overly advantageous.

There is way more than 13 Maneuvers. There is a plentory of elements that can be mixed with each other.

I have an "universal" martial Artist on my list of "concepts to be done". My best idea is: Don't try to do it with Martial Arts at all. Build it as a multipower with 0 END STR, OCV/DCV modifiers and some Slot mimiking certain maneuvers (like the Move through where the attacker takes no damage). HSMA 6E has a pretty good discussion of "Martial Arts with Powers".

[Mister E]

How would that be implemented--you can perform any maneuver for 20 points? I think that might be a little too inexpensive. I'd probably peg that at 50+ points myself. Theoretically there's hundreds of possible maneuvers, though in practice the "basic" list is about 13 maneuvers(and most styles have fewer than this number) and costs about 52 points to know all of them. Maybe you could do Universal Martial Artist at 40 points(to perform any maneuver up to 5 points), +1 DC per +4 points. In some campaigns it would work just fine(DBZ, e.g.), while in others it would be considered highly inappropriate/overly advantageous.

You are right. 20 is too low.

40 points is best for Universal Martial Artist. 40 points worth of All-Attacks SCLs would be much the same, effect-wise.

That being the case, I'd do the same with all optional mental maneuvers, as well as with all optional social maneuvers. Make them 40 point "universal" talents, that is.

[Bloodstone]

How would that be implemented--you can perform any maneuver for 20 points? I think that might be a little too inexpensive. I'd probably peg that at 50+ points myself

I'd probably put it around 50 point range myself, given what it takes to build maneuver-less martial artist via the mix of an MP and some levels (and I still think maneuvers tend to be the cheaper and stronger option most of the time).

However, you can do it via a VPP for probably half that much (assuming GM permission of course). Obviously, it's much more expensive (and powerful) if you want the option to do things like Dim Mak and toss Hadokens though.

[megaplayboy]

There is way more than 13 Maneuvers. There is a plentory of elements that can be mixed with each other.

I have an "universal" martial Artist on my list of "concepts to be done". My best idea is: Don't try to do it with Martial Arts at all. Build it as a multipower with 0 END STR, OCV/DCV modifiers and some Slot mimiking certain maneuvers (like the Move through where the attacker takes no damage). HSMA 6E has a pretty good discussion of "Martial Arts with Powers".

I was referring to the "basic" 13 maneuvers listed in 4th edition. Sometimes the list is expanded to about double that, but yes, in theory there can be hundreds of maneuvers mixing different elements and CV mods. Point-investment-wise, there's probably diminishing returns after about a dozen or so, though. You don't gain much utility by going from 15 maneuvers to 30, e.g., compared to going from 5 to 10.

[Mister E]

I'd probably put it around 50 point range myself, given what it takes to build maneuver-less martial artist via the mix of an MP and some levels (and I still think maneuvers tend to be the cheaper and stronger option most of the time).

Would you say that a Universal MA talent was equivalent to five 10-point All Attacks CSLs? Five, rather than four, seems reasonable to me. Though I'm still on the fence.

What about six 10-point All Attacks CSLs? Is 60 character points an outrageous price for Universal MA?

At 70 character points I think players would tend to not bother with Universal MA at all.

How much would you charge for access to truly all (MA, mental combat, social combat... etc.) optional maneuvers?

[megaplayboy]

Would you say that a Universal MA talent was equivalent to five 10-point All Attacks CSLs? Five, rather than four, seems reasonable to me. Though I'm still on the fence.

What about six 10-point All Attacks CSLs? Is 60 character points an outrageous price for Universal MA?

At 70 character points I think players would tend to not bother with Universal MA at all.

How much would you charge for access to truly all (MA, mental combat, social combat... etc.) optional maneuvers?

Well, martial arts can include ranged martial arts, so breaking those out separately might justify a 40/30 split or somesuch. I'd guess having some sort of Universal Combatant talent would be outrageously expensive, and would probably incorporate WF as well--120-150 points?