Hero System Sixth Edition Concise

[Kap]

Humm... Format ideas anyone?

Table of Contex
Introduction
Chapter 1: Basic Charater Creation.
Charatristics.
Skills.
Perks.
Tallents.
Complications.
Chapter 2: Advance Charater Creation.
Powers.
Power Adders (which can be applied to 2 or more powers).
Power Modifiers (Advantages and Limitations).
Power Frameworks.
Bases (how to build).
Vehicals (how to build).
Martial Arts (how to build).
Chapter 3: Rules Section.
Time And Movement.
Combat And Damage.
Doing Other Stuff.
Chapter 4: Background Stuff.
Sample Charaters.
Equipment Tables.
Vehical Tables.
Chapter 5: Where To Next?
Min Background On Vareous Parts Of The Hero System Multiverse.
The Hero System Discusion Board.
Chapter 6: Options.
New Charatristics (Santy, Mana, ect).
New Skills.
New Tallents.
New Powers.
(note: section 6 is optinal)
Apendex 1: short Glosary.
Index.

If it's to be "concise," I'd prefer they left out your idea of "Chapter 5: Where To Next? Min Background On Vareous Parts Of The Hero System Multiverse." A lot of us have no interest whatsoever in the settings created by Hero. Wasted pages for us that could be used on something more useful like examples of character generation for different settings.

I'd also prefer to do without the proposed Chapter 6 and just include guidelines on how to build new skills and talents in the sections that cover skills and talents.

Other than that it sounds pretty good.

[Kap]

The PDF format for books are 'the future of tabletop gaming'.

Not for me it isn't. I don't intend to stare at a computer during my leisure time any more than I have to. I do enough of it at work!

[RexMundi]

Not for me it isn't. I don't intend to stare at a computer during my leisure time any more than I have to. I do enough of it at work!

Likewise. Besides all the other annoying things that come along with having all the pdf infrastructure involved. Frankly I'd rather pay a 100 bucks for a single book, then pay multiples of that for something that can read the silly PDF, then find some place to plug that thing in, to get in the way of everyone else that isn't part of that splinter minority, of a niche minority hobby......

Should companies make PDF's to sell, sure thing it's easy money. Will the PDF be the *cue sound effects* >>FUTURE!!!<< *shrugs* Not gonna happen.

~Rex

[Derek Hiemforth]

Will books go away entirely? Probably not. Or at least, probably not soon. But PDFs will continue to get a bigger share of the RPG market, just like e-books and online news continue to take market share away from paper books and newspapers.

But it's not "the future;" it's now. Look at the Book of the Empress kickstarter. Almost half of the pledges were for just the PDF. Granted, some of those may ultimately buy a physical copy too, but by and large, I'd say it's an indication that at least a good-sized chunk of the RPG customer base prefers PDF these days...

[thewomble]

Here's another idea: make a Hero Lite series, with a Fantasy, Pulp, SF and Champions book. Each book consists of the BR with a few tweaks for each genre (e.g. include the Summoning power for the fantasy version) plus 60 pages of genre-specific rules taken from the full genre book. All you need to play each genre in one book. The Champions one would be like having the Big Blue Book again, but smaller and with the superior 6e rules. Sure you could just publish the genre rules and ask people to use it with the BR, but lots of folks like to have a single complete book. And with POD/PDF, there's no need to make a big print run, so it's feasible to make these kind of tailored products.

[Teflon Billy]

Here's another idea: make a Hero Lite series, with a Fantasy, Pulp, SF and Champions book. Each book consists of the BR with a few tweaks for each genre (e.g. include the Summoning power for the fantasy version) plus 60 pages of genre-specific rules taken from the full genre book. All you need to play each genre in one book. The Champions one would be like having the Big Blue Book again, but smaller and with the superior 6e rules. Sure you could just publish the genre rules and ask people to use it with the BR, but lots of folks like to have a single complete book. And with POD/PDF, there's no need to make a big print run, so it's feasible to make these kind of tailored products.

This has been put forth every single time the issue of changing Hero comes up.

It might be great for new players, but it sucks for anyone who gets beyond even the most basic level of being a novice player.

1. You have to keep half a dozen books around for all of the rules
2. It wastes paper/pages by repeating the rules in every single genre book
3. Hero Games needs to reduce the number of books needed to be in print at any one time, printing a half a dozen lite versions of their already existing genre books will not help them
4. POD books in general: suck as far as durability/quality, I would prefer Hero stuck to producing the books the regular way and not go to POD for their products.

Can we please stick to the original topic of working through a single concise complete version of the rules.

TB

[shuddemell]

As a long time printing professional, I would say it is quite likely within the next ten years printed material will be a lot harder to come by. With the skyrocketing cost of paper (we have seen a 225% increase in paper costs in the last 2 years) and the dwindling market of an actual reading public, not to mention the even faster downward spiral in the number of gamers such as ourselves... pdf's (or some other format) will begin to dominate the market more and more. On the positive side, it makes self publishing accessible to anyone with the time and effort to spend, but for retail ventures printing is quickly becoming a losing game. (Which is why I am back in college changing professions.) You only have to see the current state of Hero to realize that this is a large part of the problem, since it certainly isn't a question of quality or value...

[Chris Goodwin]

I have some anecdotes (as I'm fond of pointing out, "anecdote" is not the singular form of the word "data", but here goes... )

My wife and I bought our son a Kindle Fire for his birthday last month (actually not quite two months ago). He uses it for fun but is also already using it for homework.

I have an iPad with 6E1, 6E2, Fantasy Hero, and a few others loaded. I don't have a problem reading in electronic format, and searching for a particular phrase in PDFs is easy peasy, lemon squeezy. Almost as easy is going to the index, finding the topic, then going right to the page needed.

Some schools are buying all of their students iPads to avoid being weighted down with textbooks. I would much rather take my iPad than a lot of books; I've done the "lug every Hero System book I own to the game" thing, back in the ICE Age. It's not possible to do that now, without a PDF library.

I'm fine with PDFs. I know not everybody is, but in the history of print PDF is still a brand new technology. I'll bet readers had to adjust when the printing press was new, and the publishing industry was virtually nonexistent until then.

This might also point up the need for separate "how to play/how to learn the system" and "reference guide" books for Hero. The basics of how to play could probably fit into 32 pages, with lots of "See Hero System Reference Guide 1 p. 14 for discussion of Characteristics" and "See Hero System Reference Guide 2 p. 237 for the full list of Martial Arts maneuvers".

[DreadDomain]

But it's not "the future;" it's now. Look at the Book of the Empress kickstarter. Almost half of the pledges were for just the PDF. Granted, some of those may ultimately buy a physical copy too, but by and large, I'd say it's an indication that at least a good-sized chunk of the RPG customer base prefers PDF these days...

Not entirely true. I'd say a sizeable chunk might be people willing to support the project but on willing to shed $50 for a black and white softcover, even more so Canadian or international buyers unwilling to pay for the prohibitive shipping costs.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Not entirely true. I'd say a sizeable chunk might be people willing to support the project but on willing to shed $50 for a black and white softcover, even more so Canadian or international buyers unwilling to pay for the prohibitive shipping costs.

How does that make it untrue that a good-sized chunk of the RPG customer base prefers PDF? I didn't say half preferred it...

[Derek Hiemforth]

Reading through 6E today, I think I've realized something ironic about this subject...

A lot of the material in there that might be pruned out of a "concise" version, is really aimed at less-experienced Hero players. Many examples, answers to questions that may or may not be asked, descriptions of what abilities don't do, and so on. Most of that stuff is much more useful to the relative newcomer than it is to the longtime player.

So the very thing that seems to put off many potential newcomers (the length of the rulebooks), largely is the way it is, specifically to assist newcomers. A Hero System Sixth Edition Concise, strictly in terms of function, would actually be more useful to grognards. But those same grognards are also less likely to resist buying the larger books (even if they might prefer the concise approach).

So ultimately, the folks who're willing to buy a longer core ruleset are the ones who don't need it and may not particularly want it, and the ones who often won't buy it or are scared off by it, are the ones it's meant for... D'oh!

[Teflon Billy]

Reading through 6E today, I think I've realized something ironic about this subject...

A lot of the material in there that might be pruned out of a "concise" version, is really aimed at less-experienced Hero players. Many examples, answers to questions that may or may not be asked, descriptions of what abilities don't do, and so on. Most of that stuff is much more useful to the relative newcomer than it is to the longtime player.

So the very thing that seems to put off many potential newcomers (the length of the rulebooks), largely is the way it is, specifically to assist newcomers. A Hero System Sixth Edition Concise, strictly in terms of function, would actually be more useful to grognards. But those same grognards are also less likely to resist buying the larger books (even if they might prefer the concise approach).

So ultimately, the folks who're willing to buy a longer core ruleset are the ones who don't need it and may not particularly want it, and the ones who often won't buy it or are scared off by it, are the ones it's meant for... D'oh!

In that case I'd rather the rules were in one book and the new players muddle their way through (and hopefully they have a experienced player to hold their hand) than keep the system in its current overly verbose form.

TB

[Derek Hiemforth]

In that case I'd rather the rules were in one book and the new players muddle their way through (and hopefully they have a experienced player to hold their hand) than keep the system in its current overly verbose form.

I'd rather that too. But then, we're grognards. That's what I'd expect us to want.

[RexMundi]

I didn't have any trouble figuring out Champions when I first picked up way back in '82 or so ..... One good example, is better then multiple pages of LCD question Answer was rinse and repeat...

Sometimes you gotta just say it. Some Folks are just Dumb. Shouldn't have to torture the 10 Not Dumb people in order to let the 1 Dumb one gimp along and drag everything down to their level.....

~Rex..... Says Concise and Neat need not be unfriendly; over verbosity is easily corrected with a couple of clear concise and neat examples. Champions and HERO has had several examples (ha a repeat) of such, in several editions.... Besides, the single greatest component to getting folks to buy the product (other then a fantastically well run demonstration but that's another thread..) is the GM out there that brings in new people and introduces them to the game. That being said however; if the game is not aimed at him, but rather is designed as some sort of gigantic Gill Net to maybe fish in someone looking through pages here or there, well, that GM is going to Introduce the new players to OLD product the company isn't supporting and or making money on anymore.....

[gojira]

Personally, I would organize it exactly like the HERO System Basic Rulebook is organized, except as follows: <snipage>

I pretty much agree 100% with all of those points. I haven't seen any real disagreement on this thread. Everyone is convinced that the Hero System would benefit from a condensed core rule book. I wonder if there's really anything we can say to the powers that be at Hero Games that would nudge them over to that point of view?

(One individual who is new did speak up and say he appreciated the extra hand-holding. That's fine, I'd expect a few positive comments about the current format, at least. I just don't think it obviates the rest of the points in this thread.)