Star Wars Hero: Why should I? (or not)

[Dr Divago]

Hi all
i'm started reading Clone Wars comics books (and sooner or later i'll start seeing clone wars serial), and of course i'm wondering (again) about a campaing in SW universe

i used to GM a SW campaign for almost 10 years with WEG d6 system, but some real life events and change of interest in some players made force stopped the campaign (just few months before Battle of Hoth!!! Man i really hated my ex-players è_é )
campaign was (of course) in Ep IV-VI range and using WEG d6 system
sometime i still play (with a different group) within Ep IV-VI range using WEG d6, this time as a player
so, basically, i got a lot of book and several year of experience in WEG d6 System

with some friends we are arguing about starting a new SW group, if/when/whenever we get bored of our (Super)Heroic campaign (and this could happen next month or next year... so no hurry... i'm just arguing about some ideas )

I'm pretty sure i could use again WEG d6 System for a game in Ep IV-VI range: i know it, i got a lot of books, and it works fine.
However in other settings (like Clone Wars settings, Great Sith Wars, or basically anything before Jedi Purge) d6 system got serious problems: Jedi are too powerful, dark side points system are too restrictive (Yoda would get at least 5 Dark Side Points only fighting Palpatine in Ep III!) and of course too mechanics and i fear will not bring the idea of "slowly falling into the Dark Side"

So, i thought about using Hero System.
And this is the answer of the question "Why this moron posted about SW into an Hero System game board?"

but then i need an help solving (some) big questions:
Why should i use Hero System? and why should i not?

or, more extensive
What are the advantage of Hero System vs d6 System? what could i gain in using Hero System?
And what are the disadvantage? what could i lose?

conversely, about the mechanics, more than "how much point for a Wookiee" i need to answer about "what HS could let me do to improve the game" or "what i should/could/could not use for [specific mechanic] to really improve the game experience in using HS vs d6"
for instance: using VPP for Jedi Power will really help balancing Jedi (need to buy hig VPP contro to use very powerful powers, buy big VPP to use more power at once or need to use them reduced, etc)

Disclaimer:
i'm not in a rush; as i previously stated there is no sign of starting campaign soon and maybe i'll never use HS to play a SW game.
But, i like to be prepared; plus this day i'm in a SW mood and got some time to spare in some brainstorming about it...

[itsalwayssunny]

In the WEG version, Jedi PCs only become too powerful if the GM lets them. In 1st edition, it's never been a problem in my games.

I don't see why you think Yoda would get any Dark Side points. Do you envision Yoda using the Force for evil, initiating violence, violating the Jedi code willy-nilly, and killing other than in self-defense? I haven't seen any of the new Star Wars movies and cartoons, so maybe they changed his temperament, but the Yoda I remember didn't go around using the Force to do evil or for selfish gain, and didn't run around hacking off limbs with his lightsaber without provocation.

The Dark Side system isn't too restrictive in my opinion, it's there to make sure PCs fight on the side of good.

--Kap

[moquif]

I'd stick with the d6 system because of the equipment and abilities rules. In Hero everything is exactly defined given a set of powers. The d6 is more flexible in that you just have to describe a force ability and that's it. You don't have to find the best match of powers, advantages, disadvantages, etc. If something goes outside the rules of Hero (hard, but not impossible) you're stuck. In d6 you can create it on the fly. Then you have the equipment. Star Hero tried to make a "lightsaber" that cost hundreds of points (ditto with Star Trek's phaser pistol). It makes the point levels very unbalanced.

[Christopher]

I'd stick with the d6 system because of the equipment and abilities rules. In Hero everything is exactly defined given a set of powers. The d6 is more flexible in that you just have to describe a force ability and that's it. You don't have to find the best match of powers, advantages, disadvantages, etc. If something goes outside the rules of Hero (hard, but not impossible) you're stuck. In d6 you can create it on the fly. Then you have the equipment. Star Hero tried to make a "lightsaber" that cost hundreds of points (ditto with Star Trek's phaser pistol). It makes the point levels very unbalanced.

Actually, I think hero is way better for this. You can build anything and still be relatively certain it stays balanced. While I can see that the Lightsaber looks difficulty at first, it can be done easily: 1d6+1 KA, double Penetrating (+1), 0 END (+1/2), Works Like A Lightsaber (+1/2); 60 AP.

Most of the problems come from people trying to do every single, last use or detail with hero. But the same problems is common with Comicbook heroes too.

I understand the thought behind "Yody should have gotten 5 Darkside points": Using objects as weapons with TK, automatically gives you a Darkside point in WEG. IMHO this was simply a misunderstanding about "a Yedi uses the force only for defense, not offense". The WEG designers thought "pacifists", while it only meant a general attitude to not initiate conflicts (but still fight full force once the enemy/the force put you into one).

I also don't see how jedi's could get powerfull fast. Force skills are the most expensive and it's very hard to find a teacher. Plus, most of the powers are sustained. Even with 3d6 Controll and Sensing, using Lightsaber combat you only get a net +1D6 after accounting for the -2d6 to sustain Lightsaber combat.

[Tasha]

One HUGE benefit of using Hero System to play Star Wars. The ability to create the character the player wants. Not the flawed vision forced on a player by a system like d6, d20 or Saga. We played a very successful Star Wars game for nearly a year. VPP doesn't make sense to me for Jedi Powers. Jedi/Sith Powers are fairly set and easy to just buy. I guess you could put some of the powers in a Multipower. Also you could successfully argue that the powers have a Unified Power concept (force abilities). Which means that creatures like Shadow Assassins and other force eaters/ force nulls can be resistant or even immune to force powers.

Remember that Light Sabers should be nerfed (ie downpowered) a bit from what you thought you saw in the movies.

Look toward other threads here for other takes on Star Wars. I think there are 5th edition writeups of most Star Wars weapons in the Hero Designer archive. There are also some webpages devoted to Star Wars Hero.

[Ninja-Bear]

Dr. Divago, if you search the internet, there is a fan-made Phatom Menace sorcebook out there with write ups of clone troopers and combat droids from the first movie, and jedi powers, too. I believe that it is in WEG d6 format, but that can save some leg work for yah!

[Christopher]

Remember that Light Sabers should be nerfed (ie downpowered) a bit from what you thought you saw in the movies.

Look toward other threads here for other takes on Star Wars. I think there are 5th edition writeups of most Star Wars weapons in the Hero Designer archive. There are also some webpages devoted to Star Wars Hero.

Especially when you try to build from a Prequell point of view, you have to keep the high power level in mind. You average Yedi master is about 300-400 Points superhuman. The Emperor, Yoda or Vader (after getting his armor) are easily in the 500+ points range. Your average starting character (jedi or not) should be only around 175-225 points Heroic.

The fact that "trained jedis rock", but untrained apprentices better duck before blasterfire come trhough well in WEG, where even decent Force Skills cost a lot.

One thing also on pro for Hero, is that you are not limited to what they though of during the creation. For example, in at least one cartoon Mace Windu shows a bare handed fighting power able to destory Super Battledroids.
Or you could make a jedi not fighting with a lightsaber, but some other energy weapon. Hero offers the best modification ability and by far the best way to copy the Prequels and even the Clonwars Cartoons.

[Ninja-Bear]

One HUGE benefit of using Hero System to play Star Wars. The ability to create the character the player wants. Not the flawed vision forced on a player by a system like d6, d20 or Saga.

Flawed version? Flawed as in how? Forced version? again how? D6 has templates for ease of play, but also tells you (and encourages) how to modifiy or write up your on verison.

[Christopher]

Flawed version? Flawed as in how? Forced version? again how? D6 has templates for ease of play, but also tells you (and encourages) how to modifiy or write up your on verison.

Well, d20 is flawed because it is d20 (simply by the way armor works - that really causes a lot of problems).

While I think the d6 is very good in general for epic games (epscially when combined with Force points and Character points), the system as whole has a lot loss posbilities than hero.
For example, once you made your Lightsaber parry by 20, no blastershot is gonna hit you that turn. It doesn't matters how good the enemy is (I would think Boba Fett is a lot harder to stop than stormtrooper #348943). it doesn't even mater if there is one foe or 300 shootign at you: You ain't gonna be hit.

[itsalwayssunny]

Well, d20 is flawed because it is d20 (simply by the way armor works - that really causes a lot of problems).

While I think the d6 is very good in general for epic games (epscially when combined with Force points and Character points), the system as whole has a lot loss posbilities than hero.
For example, once you made your Lightsaber parry by 20, no blastershot is gonna hit you that turn. It doesn't matters how good the enemy is (I would think Boba Fett is a lot harder to stop than stormtrooper #348943). it doesn't even mater if there is one foe or 300 shootign at you: You ain't gonna be hit.

If you rolled that well and the shooters rolled that poorly, they shouldn't hit. Besides, that's only for 1 round.

Boba Fett...I never understood why people think he's such hot stuff. In the original movies he stands around a lot and once a fight starts he gets his butt handed to him.

[Christopher]

If you rolled that well and the shooters rolled that poorly, they shouldn't hit. Besides, that's only for 1 round.

Boba Fett...I never understood why people think he's such hot stuff. In the original movies he stands around a lot and once a fight starts he gets his butt handed to him.

He did survived that encouter with the Sarlac. And he managed to follow them to Bespin.
And you should see how his father (he is actually his fathers clone - along with the entire republic clone army) in the prequels, he fought Kenobi to a standstill. Also, the writeup I have for WEG Star Wars and all other accounts sugest he is "awsome" at what he does.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Hero is so superior for playing Star Wars, it's not even funny.

1: You can make a Jedi, perform like a Jedi should. The restrictions are completely up to the GM. If you are running an all Jedi campaign, you can go nuts and run something on the power level of the Gendy Tartakovsky Clone Wars animation (I did...what fun we had!). How HERO handles Speed and actions make Jedi far superior combatants if that's how you want to play them. The HERO powers system allows you to make the Jedi YOU want to make and placing their powers in a Multipower (how I suggest it be handled) makes it so Jedi can be made versatile and fun to play.

2: You determine how Jedi/Force users fall to the Darkside. The GM controls that completely. You can do something similar to D6 with "Darkside Points" and utilize a Side Effect attached to a Jedi's Force Powers that activates if a Jedi uses his force powers in an evil or selfish manner. Treat this as a Transform that effects EGO instead of Body. As Darkside Points are accumulated, the Jedi turns to the Darkside once the total number of Darkside points doubles the Jedi's Ego. Note that these should "heal" over time if the Jedi atones in some way.....acts seflishly, saves lots of lives....does some act that furthers the Living Force...something along those lines. Once someone has Transformed to the Darkside it is permanent...or nearly so. They would have to be "Transformed" back in some way. Or you can simply do it as a Disadvantage/Complication. Or some other way you determine yourself.

3: The weapons can be designed to perform to your specifications. If you want Lightsabers to be the ultimate cutting weapons, you can design them to be this way. If you want Blasters to be dangerous killing weapons, make it so. If you want armor to be barely effective, Low PD/ED it is....or the opposite if that's what you desire.

4: Aliens are a snap in HERO. Design any you want, with whatever abilities you want to give them. No restrictions in HERO.

5: Non-Jedi characters can be as competent as you want them to be. They don't have to take a back seat to Jedi in the campaign if that's what you want. Expert pilots can be built to perform brilliantly, elite troops can be built to be the ultimate combatants. Grizzled Bounty Hunters can be made to rival Jedi in many ways.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Flawed version? Flawed as in how? Forced version? again how? D6 has templates for ease of play, but also tells you (and encourages) how to modifiy or write up your on verison.

They are very flawed by the structure that WEG layed out in the basics of the game. There are simply not enough options to oftentimes play the character you want to play. And there are limits upon limits stacked on many characters in that game.

By contrast, Hero is designed from the ground up to make whatever kind of character you want to play. While that leaves the game open for exploitation, mature players are allowed to create pretty much the exact type of character they want to play for whatever genre/campaign setting they are playing in. If you want to play a Mandalorian trained Bounty Hunter who is mildly Force Sensitive and is 1/4 wookie, you can. Much more difficult to do in D6.

[Tasha]

They are very flawed by the structure that WEG layed out in the basics of the game. There are simply not enough options to oftentimes play the character you want to play. And there are limits upon limits stacked on many characters in that game.

By contrast, Hero is designed from the ground up to make whatever kind of character you want to play. While that leaves the game open for exploitation, mature players are allowed to create pretty much the exact type of character they want to play for whatever genre/campaign setting they are playing in. If you want to play a Mandalorian trained Bounty Hunter who is mildly Force Sensitive and is 1/4 wookie, you can. Much more difficult to do in D6.

Repped, you said exactly what I was thinking when I was saying all other rules sets are flawed when compared to Hero.

As players and GM's you don't have to put up with an author's interpretation of what Star Wars SHOULD be like. You can tailor your Hero System campaign to mirror your own interpretation of what Star Wars means to you and your players.

[Dr Divago]

I haven't seen any of the new Star Wars movies and cartoons, so maybe they changed his temperament, but the Yoda I remember didn't go around using the Force to do evil or for selfish gain, and didn't run around hacking off limbs with his lightsaber without provocation.

you did'nt see SW I (lucky man), II or III, and neither cartoon or comics?
without ending up talking about specific situation, during Clone Wars Jedi use TK to throw away people; in EP III Yoda use it this way 4 times only fighting vs Palpatine; in WEG there are 1 Dark Side Points everytime... at 6 you are automatically dark side characther...

btw, in WEG system, 4D at control, sense and alter will make you use successfully almost every power; with concentration, battle meditation, combat sense, attribute enhancing and some other cool (not mentioning Lightsaber Combat) you become powerful. A big limitation is accessing power: with Jedi purge most of the Jedi gone lost so a new apprentice could play for years with all same powers, and you (the GM) can use it to limit the Jedi; however, with Jedi Temple still up and Jedi on war, you got really little limitation on what you can learn
and 4D in a force skill is 18 points (assuming you start with 1D) so with 54 points you end up with all force skill to 4D. with average of 5 cp at session it's 11 session, aka 3 month of gameplay... six month assuming jedi characther is not spending all his points only for force skill
not really much!

Actually, I think hero is way better for this. You can build anything and still be relatively certain it stays balanced. While I can see that the Lightsaber looks difficulty at first, it can be done easily: 1d6+1 KA, double Penetrating (+1), 0 END (+1/2), Works Like A Lightsaber (+1/2); 60 AP.

What is the "works like a lightsabe" advantage is meant?
btw 1d6+1 KA, double penetration, real weapon (1), 0 END and no STR-Min is the way to build it. Maybe a +PRE on PRE attack but i see this more like a "side effect" of being a Jedi, not a lightsaber advantage.
Most of the power a Jedi use with lightsaber (including damage increase) are force power. Except for Laser Parry: in 6E it states you can block a ranged attack if GM permits and as a GM i'll permits to parry ranged attack using a Lightsaber (2). However, reflection is a totally different thing but again this can be a force power

(1) lightsaber hilt COULD be damaged (see Obi Wan vs Darth Maul) and lightsaber can be dispelled (using some strange metals they talk about in comics); also, i don't like the idea lightsaber are built using the force e only force user can use... in my opinion are real weapon to be cleaned, and need maintenance
(2) Geonosian's sonic weapons can't be parried with lightsaber; this could be an advantage, maybe sonic weapon are AoE, or just a situation where GM does'nt permit it

One HUGE benefit of using Hero System to play Star Wars. The ability to create the character the player wants.

Well... this is true!
plus the side you can create every alien race, every starship stats, every weapons, every force power just using power creation rules and it's all equilibrate (i mean: you got a clear idea of what is "more advantageous" then other... in d6 system sometime i invented something that ends up being too powerful or too useless...)

We played a very successful Star Wars game for nearly a year. VPP doesn't make sense to me for Jedi Powers. Jedi/Sith Powers are fairly set and easy to just buy. I guess you could put some of the powers in a Multipower. Also you could successfully argue that the powers have a Unified Power concept (force abilities).

using straight powers (not vpp) will not be too expensive?
also, building some multipowers (like control, sense and alter or invent some other based on Jedi discipline) and forcing using multipowers for power could be a good in between solution...