Damage Negation!

[casualplayer]

@casualplayer: If you don't like it, don't use it. Problem solved. The Power is optional, just like the rest of the toolkit.

My issue is some people posting are claiming that there is inherently something wrong or "broke" or over complicated with DN. But that is totally subjective. I know of several posters who never use END in their heroic level games because they feel it is too much bookkeeping, but they generally don't try to convince the forum at large that END is overcomplicated or shouldn't be an option. Is having DN in a Champions game really that much more work than a Heroic level game that uses all of the optional combat rules (hit locations, impairing, debilitating, additional bleeding rules and more)? I really don't think so. That doesn't mean it is right for every game or even any game with some groups, but claiming there is something inherently wrong with it seems disingenuous for a system like Hero that is such a toolkit. (I'm not aiming this at you particularly, it is just the general feel I'm getting from those that dislike it).

I'm curious as to why, my being one of the people who offered up examples of using the power Damage Negation and suggestions on how to make it work in play, you would imply that I don't like, don't and shouldn't use the Power. I'm actually not sure who is supposedly posting to this thread who doesn't. How does not liking an addendum that I find needlessly cumbersome lead to what you are saying? Then you proceed to give a straw man a good thrashing.

I've found that DN works extremely well to reflect people invulnerable to certain types of damage, whether an energy type or non-magical weapons. My personal favorite use is DN versus Real Weapons/Items to emulate people who can be riddled with mooks' bullets or pummeled by faceless ninja and walk away unscathed but still have some concern about the non-standard weapons that a named PC/NPC might carry.

I have no problem with someone's Advantaged dice pool coming up against DN and failing to exceed the threshold set. When you Advantage a Power you are trading amplitude for finesse and specialization, and sometimes finesse and specialization are not the right tools for the job. Using Sean's own argument, an excellent argument at that, the prevalence of swiss army offensive Multipowers with nearly every variety of tricky damage listed but absolutely including an NND slot shows that the benefits of NNDs far outweigh the costs involved. Many Advantages are too much of a bargain and Damage Negation helps restore equilibrium.

[Sean Waters]

Hero, as we tirelessly point out, is a toolkit. I for one take that to mean that you basically do what you like with it. I have not really encountered The Ultimate Multipower in games I have played in, and I am always a bit wary when I see that sort of thing elsewhere. I think that applying unmodified DN sounds like a good way to deal with that problem if it arises, but everyone gets different mileage out of it.

[bigbywolfe]

I'm curious as to why, my being one of the people who offered up examples of using the power Damage Negation and suggestions on how to make it work in play, you would imply that I don't like, don't and shouldn't use the Power. I'm actually not sure who is supposedly posting to this thread who doesn't. How does not liking an addendum that I find needlessly cumbersome lead to what you are saying? Then you proceed to give a straw man a good thrashing.I've found that DN works extremely well to reflect people invulnerable to certain types of damage, whether an energy type or non-magical weapons. My personal favorite use is DN versus Real Weapons/Items to emulate people who can be riddled with mooks' bullets or pummeled by faceless ninja and walk away unscathed but still have some concern about the non-standard weapons that a named PC/NPC might carry. I have no problem with someone's Advantaged dice pool coming up against DN and failing to exceed the threshold set. When you Advantage a Power you are trading amplitude for finesse and specialization, and sometimes finesse and specialization are not the right tools for the job. Using Sean's own argument, an excellent argument at that, the prevalence of swiss army offensive Multipowers with nearly every variety of tricky damage listed but absolutely including an NND slot shows that the benefits of NNDs far outweigh the costs involved. Many Advantages are too much of a bargain and Damage Negation helps restore equilibrium.

Several people in this thread and others have basically said that DN is too complicated to use. Sorry if I grouped you in with those individuals, I didn't re-read the entire thread before responding to your post about prorated Damage Classes being too complicated, my bad. My argument is hardly a "strawman" however, it applies to those others I mentioned, I simply should have seperated it from my response to you specifically.As to your response to Sean's post. If DN will be common in a game your way basically punishes those with Advantages. This violates "you get what you pay for" in such a fundemental way I don't think I would want to play in that game.

[Hyper-Man]

......and no mention of RAW!

Well proper cooking is always recommended.

[AmadanNaBriona]

DN, especially DN limited to only work versus "Real" attacks as mentioned above, is likely to become a component of the Size templates in my future games., as well it's counter advantage
It seems a graceful way to handle scale differences, one of my pet peeves w/ HERO

Edit: That is to say that the counter can thus be used for "out of scale" weapons intended to attack larger targets

[Christopher]

All the ones I expect to face a PC with a Drain, Suppress, etc. against that power, and all the ones I expect to have that power Aided or Succored, have a "points to reduce by one DC" figure. Otherwise, I either bog down the game using those adjustment powers.

In fact each of the following things does absolutely the same and includes teh same amount of complex math:
- Supress/Drain or Aid/Boost Attack Power*
- Supress/Drain or Aid/Boost STR (for HA, HKA and naked STR advantages)*
- Making a Haymaker
- Making Move-by/Move through
- using CSL to add Damage
- using Martial Arts or Ranged Martial Arts to improve the DC of an attack
- the target having DN.

(*for theses one you don't have to exclude things like 0 END from the Calculation but otherwise they are the same).

DN, especially DN limited to only work versus "Real" attacks as mentioned above, is likely to become a component of the Size templates in my future games., as well it's counter advantage
It seems a graceful way to handle scale differences, one of my pet peeves w/ HERO

Edit: That is to say that the counter can thus be used for "out of scale" weapons intended to attack larger targets

I even thought about applying Impenetrable as Part of the defenses. My reasonning is, that this little cut/shoot isn't all that wild for something that size. Like most spider teeth can't get through our skin, that lightsaber (2d6 KA, Double Penetrating) might simply not be that effective against 20-km-man (without him needing tons of BODY).

[Sean Waters]

Well proper cooking is always recommended.

Most of what I write gets roasted anyway

[Twintails]

Having taken a good long look at DN to try and figure the whole DC thing out. I have come to a couple conclusions. This may be a total retread but at least I'm stating it concisely.

DCs are complex, anything having to do with DC is inherently sharing that complexity. Calculating DC with advantages is perhaps the hardest as I couldn't find a good equation or anything in the books, and finding dice from DC is harder still since it doesn't even get a mention.
I did manage to come up with an equation that works, though it may be needlessly complex:

((Dice x Cost) x (1 + Adders)) / 5 = ((DC x 5) / (1 + Adders)) / Cost.

I checked the equation backwards and forwards using the tables in APG2 and it's solid, though you'll have to use your own judgement on partial dice. My problem that precipitated the need for an equation was that the tables provided weren't going high enough. Admittedly this whole thing is complex and could slow play, but in my experience so does trying to use autofire or other combat maneuvers.
That is the wonderful thing about Hero system. You can play it as complex as you want. If you want simple, then you can play it simple. If you can handle complex then by all means go as complex as you'd like with things like Hit Locations. Hero system allows the GM and the PCs to customize the entire experience too a degree that leaves DnD green with envy. Some people may find the breadth of choices too expansive, too massive to grasp. Certainly I myself was daunted upon introduction and have only recently managed to scratch much beyond the surface into the intricacies underneath. The thing is that now that I understand how DCs work, I'm completely fine with it. Yes, it's a ton of work, but it does exactly what I want.

The usefulness of Damage Negation has been a topic of debate, and there have been several good examples in either direction so I'll not even try those. But I have learned a few things by crunching some number. Damage Negation is not, and never will be a good replacement for protection. It is however an excellent Augment. Something to have in addition to. It takes effect before all other defense but barriers, and it allows protection to go further than it might otherwise. The problem with buying protection is this, Resistant protection is expensive, but regular protection won't do squat against a KA, so you wind up either guarding really well against one, or just kinda compromising somewhere in the middle. DN works equally well against both and more. Plus I find that armor piercing is cheap but hardened is difficult to justify, so DN is efficient on that front as well. It can even be made cheap to use with some smart limiting, personal favorite is to make it cost end to use and make it only activate on attacks above a certain threshold DC. This way it protects against the strong attacks that easily overcome protection while still being balanced. It all really comes down to how it's used.

I really just wanted to share the equation since finding that sort of thing is why I came to this thread in the first place. I'll get off my soapbox now.

[Christopher]

APG II 64f has two tables (Normal + Killing), wich go as high as 30 DC and +2 in Advantages.

[Ndreare]

APG II 64f has two tables (Normal + Killing), wich go as high as 30 DC and +2 in Advantages.

I feel out of the loop what does the f stand for in page 64f?

[Christopher]

I feel out of the loop what does the f stand for in page 64f?

At least in german it stands for "followign page". And ff stands for folowign pages.

But I am not so sure if that is international. But basically it's short for 64+65.

[Ndreare]

Cool, learn something new everyday

[Killer Shrike]

I wrote up my thoughts on Damage Negation back when 6e came out. Here:

Damage Negation

[johnvalentine]

I have just been fiddling around with an 'indestructible' character. I tried the 'hybrid' DN build that Killer Shrike talked about.

He has -15 DC's DN, 10 rPD, and 50% rDR.

I think the order would be DN->PD-> DR.

So if I got hit with a 8D6 Killing Attack with no advantages, first it would be reduced to 3D6. Then saying the damage was pretty decent, 14 BODY. So after PD I have 4 body damage left, which gets cut in half to 2 BODY?

The question I have is at what point does the stun multiplier gets applied? Resistant DR also applies to stun too right?

[Christopher]

Yes, your calculation is high. Only the damage is a little high for a decent Roll (10 is teh average).

Yes, Resistant PD and DR affect the Stun as well. Afaik the Multiplier is rolled between DN and PD. Stun is checked after DR.