Damage Die Type Modifiers

[Mister E]

How should various damage die types be valued as modifiers if damage is set at other than d6?

[edit]:

Here are my [old] numbers:

d2 = 1.5 active points
d3 = 2.5 active points
d4 = 3 active points
d6 = 5 active points
d8 = 7 active points
d10 = 8 active points
d12 = 10 active points
d20 = 16 active points
d100 = 80 active points

Here are what I believe to be the maximum effects for normal stun attacks:

1d2 (2 BODY, 2 STUN)
1d3 (2 BODY, 3 STUN)
1d4 (2 BODY, 4 STUN)
1d6 (2 BODY, 6 STUN)
1d8 (2 BODY, 8 STUN)
1d10 (2 BODY, 10 STUN)
1d12 (2 BODY, 12 STUN)
1d20 (2 BODY, 20 STUN)
1d100 (2 BODY, 100 STUN)

Extrapolating from the arbitrary fact that 2 BODY & 6 STUN together cost 5 character points, the price of 1 DC (1d6 "normal stun" attack)... here are my [new] numbers:

1d2: 2+1 = 3 active points
1d3: 2+1.5 = 3.5 active points
1d4: 2+2 = 4 active points
1d6: 2+3 = 5 active points (1 DC)
1d8: 2+4 = 6 active points
1d12: 2+6 = 8 active points
1d20: 2+10 = 12 active points
1d100: 2+50 = 52 active points

Here are my [old] respective modifiers (an alternative to using the above numbers):

d2 (-2)
d3 (-1)
d4 (-1/2)
d6 (0)
d8 (+1/3)
d10 (+2/3)
d12 (+1)
d20 (+2 1/3)
d100 (+15)

Here are what I believe to be the standard effects for normal stun attacks:

1d2 (1 BODY, 1 STUN)
1d3 (1 BODY, 1.5 STUN)
1d4 (1 BODY, 2 STUN)
1d6 (1 BODY, 3 STUN)
1d8 (1 BODY, 4 STUN)
1d10 (1 BODY, 5 STUN)
1d12 (1 BODY, 6 STUN)
1d20 (1 BODY, 10 STUN)
1d100 (1 BODY, 50 STUN)

Averages:

1d2 (1 BODY, 1.5 STUN)
1d3 (1 BODY, 2 STUN)
1d4 (1 BODY, 2.5 STUN)
1d6 (1 BODY, 3.5 STUN)
1d8 (1 BODY, 4.5 STUN)
1d10 (1 BODY, 5.5 STUN)
1d12 (1 BODY, 6.5 STUN)
1d20 (1 BODY, 10.5 STUN)
1d100 (1 BODY, 50.5 STUN)

[edit]:

[new] Killing Attacks (based on max dmg):

1d2 (2 BODY, 6 STUN): 2+3 = 5 active points
1d3 (3 BODY, 9 STUN): 3+4.5 = 7.5 active points
1d4 (4 BODY, 12 STUN): 4+6 = 10 active points
1d6 (6 BODY, 18 STUN): 6+9 = 15 active points
1d8 (8 BODY, 24 STUN): 8+12 = 20 active points
1d10 (10 BODY, 30 STUN): 10+15 = 25 active points
1d12 (12 BODY, 36 STUN): 12+18 = 30 active points
1d20 (20 BODY, 60 STUN): 20+30 = 50 active points
1d100 (100 BODY, 300 STUN): 100+150 = 250 active points

[Ozymandias]

Well, I'd be hesitant to allow this, since this seems that it would cause some pretty bad balance issues, but purely statistically, a d2 has an average of 1.5, which is approximately half the average of a d6, which would put it at somewhere like -1 or -1.25. A d3 averages 2, and would thus be about a -3/4. A d4 averages 2.5, so it would be worth about -1/2 or -1/4. A d8 would average 4.5, and thus would be worth approximately +1/4. A d10 averages 5.5, and would be worth approximately +1/2 or +3/4. A d12 averages 6.5, and would be worth a +1. A d20 would average 10.5, and would be a +2. A d100 averages 50.5 and should be +13.5. For any preservation of game balance, These numbers would need to be done separately from the active cost, as a second round, ie (Base cost/rank*rank)*(1+Die Type advantages)*(1+Other advantages)= Active points. Active Points/[(1+Die Limitiations)*(1+Other Limitations)] = Real cost.

Now body damage would be tricky. I'd say on a d2, d3 or d4, a 1 deals 0 BODY, and anything else deals 1 BODY. On anything above d6, is trickier. A d6 averages 1 BODY; a d8 costs 5/4 of a d6, so it should deal about 5/4 BODY on average, so a 6, 7 or 8 should deal 2 BODY, 1 deals 0 BODY, and everything else deals 1 BODY. A d10 is worth either 3/2 or 7/4 a d6, depending on which cost seems appropriate. The munchkin basher in me says a +3/4 is appropriate, so I'll go with that for this purpose. As a result, it should deal about 7/4 BODY on average. For that, I'd say a 1 is still 0 BODY, a 2 through 5 is 1, a 6 or 7 is 2, an 8 or 9 is 3, and a 10 is 4. Alternatively, if you go the +1/2 route, it should go like: 1 is 0 BODY, 2-6 is 1, 7-8 is 2, and a 9-10 is 3. For a d12, it should average 2 body, so I'd go: 1-2 is 0 body, 3-5 is 1 body, 6-8 is 2 body, 9-10 is 3 body, 11 is 4 body and 12 is 5 body. For a d20, it's 3x the cost, so it should average 3 body. 1-3 is 0 Body, 4-6 is 1 body, 7-9 is 2 body, 10-12 is 3 body, 13-15 is 4 Body, 16-17 is 5 body and 18 is 6 body, 19 is 7 body, and 20 is 8 BODY, and d100, lastly should average 14.5 BODY per die. I'm not even going to begin trying to work that one out. Anyway, this is all statistics, and relying on the law of large numbers to sort it out, which I doubt would work out as planned. When static modifiers, like defenses, are added, this all goes to the crapper.

But yeah. I would not do this, unless you're running an online game (ie maptools), and even then, it would be pretty bad. d6s are fairly common, so rolling 12d6 isn't so much of a problem. Having someone roll too many d8s or d12s or the like would be torture to players who may only have a couple lying around. Even in an online game, this could get confusing, since everyone knows a DC 12 blast is 12d6 and a DC12 RKA is 4d6, but when you get into xd12s and yd4s, it's just confusing for no real reason. You have to ask yourself what the reason for this design is. To be honest, I don't see any, and would not use it. Even cost balanced as best as I can make it, It still cries min-max, and if a player uses this rule, I'm pretty sure the rest of the table will too.

[Mister E]

I like polyhedrons.

For counting BODY damage, I'm keeping the house-rule simple. 1s are "zero" & the die-number is "two". So a d2 coin toss would have two BODY count results: either "zero" or "two"... but never just one.

As far as I can see, the imbalance between STUN & BODY damages is a happy accident that is both predictable & graduated... which I like.

[edit]:

All this is tentative. =P

[The Main Man]

I've wanted to hash this out before myself. While I'm not sure if I would personally use such rules, I think it would be nice if they were there, especially if a D20/D&D/Pathfinder player comes to the HERO side but doesn't have nearly enough d6s.

I think "1= 0 BODY, Die Type= 2 BODY" is on the right track, though I'm not sure it has it right.

Furthermore, one needs to consider the cost of each die type. I think Damage Classes provide a general guide to how to get there.

A single Damage Class generally assumes 5 Active Points and is based on d6s. Standard effect is 1 BODY, 3 STUN and Maximum Effect is 2 BODY, 6 STUN.

2 BODY and 6 STUN costs 5 Character Points when bought as Characteristics, interestingly enough.

So lemme think here...
d2 --> Standard Effect: 0 BODY, 1 STUN / Maximum Effect: 1 BODY, 2 STUN --> 2 Active Points
d4 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 2 STUN / Maximum Effect: 1 BODY, 4 STUN --> 3 Active Points
d6 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 3 STUN / Maximum Effect: 2 BODY, 6 STUN --> 5 Active Points
d8 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 4 STUN / Maximum Effect: 3 BODY, 8 STUN --> 7 Active Points
d10 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 5 STUN / Maximum Effect: 3 BODY, 10 STUN --> 8 Active Points
d12 --> Standard Effect: 2 BODY, 6 STUN / Maximum Effect: 4 BODY, 12 STUN --> 10 Active Points

[Sean Waters]

Not sure how BODY is being calculated there.

If you assume 1=no Body, (Die number)=2 Body and everything else is 1 Body then bigger dice will do proportionally more Stun, and give results with a lot more variation.

Can anyone say 'Stun lottery'?

[Mister E]

I think "1= 0 BODY, Die Type= 2 BODY" is on the right track, though I'm not sure it has it right.

"1= 0 BODY, Die Type= 2 BODY"

That's it in a nutshell. This principle appeals to me because it seems more intuitive & less arbitrary than anything else I can think of. Basically there is no new rule other than that a different die is used.

Furthermore, one needs to consider the cost of each die type.

Originally I was wondering about modifier values. But I like what you are doing.

I think Damage Classes provide a general guide to how to get there.

A single Damage Class generally assumes 5 Active Points and is based on d6s. Standard effect is 1 BODY, 3 STUN and Maximum Effect is 2 BODY, 6 STUN.

2 BODY and 6 STUN costs 5 Character Points when bought as Characteristics, interestingly enough.

So lemme think here...
d2 --> Standard Effect: 0 BODY, 1 STUN / Maximum Effect: 1 BODY, 2 STUN --> 2 Active Points
d4 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 2 STUN / Maximum Effect: 1 BODY, 4 STUN --> 3 Active Points
d6 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 3 STUN / Maximum Effect: 2 BODY, 6 STUN --> 5 Active Points
d8 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 4 STUN / Maximum Effect: 3 BODY, 8 STUN --> 7 Active Points
d10 --> Standard Effect: 1 BODY, 5 STUN / Maximum Effect: 3 BODY, 10 STUN --> 8 Active Points
d12 --> Standard Effect: 2 BODY, 6 STUN / Maximum Effect: 4 BODY, 12 STUN --> 10 Active Points

I'm not sure that I like breaking this down w/ DCs as the measure, it doesn't have the characteristics I thought it would have. =P

I was going to apply the dmg die type modifier to determine DCs. For instance, if 12d6 Blast is 12 DCs... then I figure 12d4 (lesser dmg die type; -1/2) Blast is 8 DCs. So that if 12 DCs is the campaign maximum, then an 18d4 standard effect Blast (18 BODY, 32 STUN) is legit.

I'm still thinking about what actual values I want for these modifiers. Ozymandias' suggestions look pretty good to me. My heart hasn't quite nailed what it wants, though.

[Mister E]

Not sure how BODY is being calculated there.

If you assume 1=no Body, (Die number)=2 Body and everything else is 1 Body then bigger dice will do proportionally more Stun, and give results with a lot more variation.

Can anyone say 'Stun lottery'?

Stun lottery.

[Mister E]

... I do think body damage should be based on what the stun rolled is.

1 - 0 body
2-5 - 1 body
6 - 2 body

if we go off of this, we just add 6 each time to determine the body score for higher dice.

7 - 2 body
8-11 - 3 body
12 - 4 body

13 - 4 body
14-17 - 5 body
18 - 6 body

19 - 6 body
20-23 - 7 body
24 - 8 body

[...]

[Kraven Kor]

I would really go with The Main Man's outline of changing the base cost of a power based on Damage Die.

Using the limitations, a 6d2 Normal Attack is going to be 30 Active Points, what like 17 Real Points, and average 9 STUN / say 3 BODY (with an assumption that, similar to a 1/2d6, a roll of "3 to 6" is 1 BODY, "1 to 3" is 0 BODY. I would HIGHLY recommend not making a d2 do "0 or 2 BODY.")

Compare that to a 6d6 Normal Attack - 30 Active Points, 30 Real Points, average 21 STUN / 7-8 BODY or so (all numbers rough estimates, garnered through an intricate process that boils down to "pulling it out of my arse.")

Changing the base active cost of the different dice will make the math work a little better, in relation to active points, but yes. STUN. Fuggin'. Lottery.

Keep in mind that HERO is kind of delicately balanced on the idea that 5 Active Points = 5 Active Points across nearly every power. Changing that math could have... unexpected results.

Have fun!

[Mister E]

[delete]

[Mister E]

... but yes. STUN. Fuggin'. Lottery.

Head d12
Hands d3
Arms d4
Shoulders d6
Chest d6
Stomach d8
Vitals d10
Thighs d6
Legs d4
Feet d3

???

[Kraven Kor]

Head d12
Hands d3
Arms d4
Shoulders d6
Chest d6
Stomach d8
Vitals d10
Thighs d6
Legs d4
Feet d3

???

Right now, a head shot is x5 STUN.

You are suggesting making that 1x through 12x STUN, and seemingly (correct me if I am wrong, and please read this in a casual, informational tone rather than an incredulous or 'angry' tone) not understanding why we warn you about the potential for "STUN Lottery" where one low damage, high-STUNx roll might knock a guy into deeply unconscious (say, 6 x 12 = 72 STUN from a 6 BODY attack...), while another high-damage, low-STUNx attack does nothing? Heck, even the d3 STUNx is sometimes seen as "too erratic" and groups opt to only use Hit Location modifiers or a flat 2x STUNx or whatever.

Again, you are free to do this if you feel it would be cool / fun / fitting. We are - or at least, I am - just warning you of the possible imbalance or problems you might see.

I really love using different types of dice, but the beauty of the HERO system to me is the inherent balance, and the fact that 3d6 rolls more "mid range" results than the randomness of a D20, and 10d6 is more reliable than 3d20 in the sense that you aren't as likely to roll stupid low on your effect / damage rolls.

[Sean Waters]

So... does this seem reasonable?

Normal Stun
d2 = 2 Active Points
d3 = 3 Active Points
d4 = 4 Active Points
d6 = 5 Active Points
d8 = 7 Active Points
d10 = 8 Active Points
d12 = 10 Active Points
d20 = 13 Active Points
d100 = 45 Active Points

[edit]:

Triple for killing attacks?

Killing Attacks
d2 = 6 Active Points
d3 = 9 Active Points
d4 = 12 Active Points
d6 = 15 Active Points
d8 = 21 Active Points
d10 = 24 Active Points
d12 = 30 Active Points
d20 = 39 Active Points
d100 = 135 Active Points

So for 60 points you can get 20d3 normal attacks that average 40 Stun and 20 Body? That is 8 more Body than a normal 12d6 attack. I know that Active Point caps can stop this, but not everyone uses them.

For 45 points you can get a 1d100 attack that averages over 50 Stun (and 1 Body)? That is 19 more Stun than a 9d6 normal attack that costs the same active and real points.

No, that does not seem reasonable.

You will wind up with 'smaller' weapons, like daggers, killing as or more often than larger weapons, like greatswords, but doing less Stun on the journey. I am not sure that works.

Part of the problem is that DnD and Hero do defences very differently. In DnD almost everything is lumped into hit points and Damage Resistance is saved for special attacks and is relatively minor in most cases. Hero uses Stun and Body but also defences. Big variations in damage will make it very difficult to balance your defences appropriately without getting KO'd every other attack.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm sure there was an old Hero newsletter that talked about this. They didn't use an advantage - they changed the base cost instead. BOD was 0 on a 1, 2 on the highest possible roll and 1 on anything in between.

If using 1d100 is a +5 advantage, why not make your 1 die Blast, d100 (+5) penetrating, armor piercing and 0 END, or AVAD, does BOD or whatever advantage combo you like? You average 50.5 on each roll (better than a 14d6 attack, so that +5 is way too low to begin with), for 30 points, so shell out another 10 points to make it an AVAD that Does BOD. For another 5 it can be 0 END with No Range Modifiers.

[Mister E]

Right now, a head shot is x5 STUN.

You are suggesting making that 1x through 12x STUN

Sorry. Actually I was merely suggesting what type of dice to use rather than apply a multiple.

I would be down with letting a head shot be w/ d20s.